Evolution of Christianity and Other Religions
77Tree of Life/Knowledge
Christianity is Nothing Original
I'm curious about the origins and evolution of religions and other cultural elements in society. I was indoctrinated into the christian faith since childhood, and am now an outsider looking in. I am not interested in practising any religion, and I no longer believe in the supernatural. I have a background in science. I am fascinated with how humans have evolved.
It is only recently that I've been digging into the history of christianity, and was rather surprised to find that the bible wasn't as old as claimed, and the gospels were written approximately a century after Jesus was claimed to have lived. Also that the books of the bible were voted on by a committee of men.
I was rather surprised to find out there is no evidence, archeological or in independent records that Jesus even existed. It is possible a man that called Jesus believed he was God. The legends of the miracles etc are likely to be invented, just like the Maori exaggerated their recollections of the Moa (extinct, giant flightless bird).
The birth and death dates and years of Jesus are unknown. What Jesus looked like is also unknown. There are no eyewitness records about Jesus, only here-say (the gospels were written by anonymous authors, not the disciples of Jesus). The bible itself has been edited thousands of times with deliberate forgery.
I've looked at how religions are all interconnected and borrow each other's ideas, which are founded on more ancient mythologies. I find it interesting that separated ancient cultures like the aborigine people had their cave drawings, mythologies, body art until very recently when Europeans settled in Australia. Equally fascinating is the unique wildlife that has evolved in Australia.
When one is indoctrinated into a religion (most likely the religion of their parents and their nation), one is required to believe without rational thinking. One is also told that other religions and sects are wrong or evil. Now that I'm free of religion, I'm analysing it and making the links between other topics that personally interest me.
Mithras - Pagan Christ
Christianity has Evolved
Many people will be aware that christianity has many denominations or sects, like branches off a tree. Many christians are quick to say that catholics are not 'true' christians, yet they fail to realise that all protestant christianity has catholic roots. They may also say christians of other denominations are not 'true christians.'
Many christians do not realise either, that the ku klux klan identify as christian. Jehovah witnesses and mormons also evolved from christian roots, just like the baptists or pentecostals. They all have different translations of the bible, and various interpretations, which define their sects/cults/denominations. And they each think their version is 'The Truth' and everyone else is a cult. The mormons started out as a polygamous sect, but now only a cult of mormonism practises plural marriage.
Christianity in the past few centuries has evolved too - previously christians believed the Earth was flat and the Sun went around Earth. They also believed the sky was a fixed, solid dome. People that said otherwise were tortured and burnt at the stake by the church.
They also believed that God created the Earth less than 6,000 years ago. Nowadays, there are a mixture of belief systems, influenced by evidence in science of evolution of life and an ancient Earth. There are Young Earth Creationists, Old Earth Creationists, Christians that also believe in evolution and more.
Christian Denominations
Addiction
'Religion isn't the opiate of the masses; it's the placebo of the masses.' - Dr Gregory House
Christianity, Judaism, Islam Connected
Christianity, Judaism and Islam are all connected, further down the religious evolutionary tree. All three have a common trunk of belief in the God of Abraham. Christianity sees Jesus Christ as the 'messiah' or 'saviour' and use both the Old and New Testaments of the protestant bible.
As far as I can gather, no-one in the New Testament actually met Jesus - the gospels were written about 100 years after Jesus was supposed to have lived, and Paul only met Jesus in a 'vision' (dream/hallucination). The Old Testament isn't really particularly old, only about 1000BC, that was supposed to cover thousands of years of history.
Islam believes that Jesus Christ is a prophet, but not God. Islam and Judaism reject the writings of Paul in the New Testament (which by the way wasn't one book, but separate letters and stories). Islam has their prophet Muhammad.
The Jews reject Jesus as a messiah, even though Jesus was of Jewish descent. They have parts of the Old Testament and reject the New Testament. Catholics have extra books in their bible. Martin Luther separated out some books that were later eliminated.
Protestant Branches
Origins of Cross - Sun Worship
Christianity influenced by Ancient Religion
'Christian' holidays like Christmas and Easter originated as Pagan festivals. Christmas is more about celebrating the winter solace (astrology) than the birth of Jesus. Many symbols and traditions from christianity are derived from other beliefs eg the cross, marriage, heaven and hell.
Christianity has other influences, like the more ancient monotheistic religion, Zoroasterism. Zoroaster is a messiah, with similar legends to Jesus.
Egyptian and Greek mythologies have gods and similar themes to the religions that thrive today. The belief that the heart rather than the brain is responsible for thoughts and feelings persist today. Egyptians discarded the brain as useless, but treasured the heart in burial preparations.
Very ancient religions worshipped nature, the Sun etc. Some think the bible is allegory for Sun worship and that is why the numbers in the bible have special significance.
Influence of Zoroasterism on Judeo-Christian concept of God - history of the evolution of these religions and their common themes
Early Human Migrations
Same Old Stories
All cultures have their mythologies/ancient beliefs/religions and they have common themes, just like romance novels have the same plots, different characters.
Some repeated themes in mythologies/religions:
- creation story
- flood story
- metaphors for good and bad
- a risen saviour
- an afterlife
- heaven and hell
- moral stories
- death and rebirth
- god(s)/hero(es)
- animal/human sacrifice
- special festivals
- trees of life/knowledge
- snake/serpent
- cannibalism/drinking blood
- body parts used as bounty (scalps/skulls). Foreskins taken as bounty in bible.
Maori Carving
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livelonger - thanks, I will check that out. I don't know a huge amount about religions apart from christianity, that's why my main focus was christianity
Good to read you post Bailybear. I think there is a strong argument that religion evolves. 'God' by Jack Miles is person who argues litaraturely that our understanding as well as God him self changes and evolves. If you are an ABC listener you can hear it here (http://www.abc.net.au/sundaynights/stories/s306097
msaitken - I think religion evolves too, just like everything else in culture.
Muslims do consider Jesus a prophet as do the Jews. However, no one really knows who "Jesus" was. Certainly, whoever spoke (or wrote) the words of Jesus was intelligent and peace loving. No one is denying that.
Basically, when you research religion and "discover" its history, you will see that ALL of the tenets of EVERY religion are based on MAN's attempt to explain the world he lives in. MANkind would like to believe that there is something more than what we experience on a day to day basis. There isn't and this is a thorn in everyone's side. We are what we are and that is plenty.
It would be nice if we could focus on being the best we can be without trying to impose "religion" on everyone.
Nice work Baileybear. I see you have put some work into this. You should be congratulated.
One of the earliest depictions of Jesus shows him without a beard and with a sorcerer's wand. A piece of graffiti made around the time of Christianity's acceptance by the emperor Constantine shows a donkey being crucified. It was obviously drawn by someone who believed in the original Roman gods or some other gods. Then there is the depiction of Jesus in a chariot carting the sun across the sky.
I understand that Romans prefer beards either to be trimmed down or simply not there. A beardless Jesus would get more followers in the early years of acceptance in Rome. A previous emperor to Constantine sponsored a sun god as the official god of the empire. It didn't work out. Even so symbols of the sun god have been tacked on to Christianity. The halo for example.
Jesus had an older brother. This doesn't quite add up if his mother was a virgin when she gave birth to Jesus. Thomas actually means twin. That's worth thinking about. The name Jesus means God saves. It is a perfect name for a savior.
With Mithras you have the sacred blood of the bull. With Christianity you have the eucharist in which the wine becomes the blood of Christ and the bread becomes the body of Christ.
The KKK see themselves mostly as Protestant Christians.
Excellent, Baileybear. The commonalities among human religions, myths and belief systems point to the deep tendencies and instincts and desires inherent in all humans. The desire for life after death, the need to explain how the world works, the prospect of improving one's lot in life, the hope that an entity from afar has the power to save us (even from ourselves) etc.
Very much like the same basic human tendencies and desires produce the same plot lines in romance novels--a very apt analogy.
On TV the other day I saw a program pointing out the many parallels between the characters and motifs in Star Wars and traditional myths and religions. For example, the conflict between Luke and Darth Vader represents the classic motif of the battle between father and son. We see a similar story with Zeus, who killed his own father. Perhaps in 500 years historians will see George Lucas as a great prophet.
The point being, if one is inventing a new religion in a primitive society, it pays great dividends to make use of the preexisting motifs and literary conventions in the cultural milieu.
BaileyBear - This is a heavily researched article for which all should be grateful. That is not to say that all will agree with many of your conclusions, but few should find fault with your effort. I studied religion one time to the point of gaining an advanced degree in "Comparitive Religion." When all was said and done, my personal conclusion was that all religions are essentially alike and that only the "names" and fanciful embellishments differ among them.
Gus :-)))
Well done BaileyBear,
There are some historical mentions in Josephus, an ancient historian, but only three. So there is some historical record, but very little.
As to time frame of birth and death, I believe 4 BCE is a birth year that has gained some acceptance and with the alignments of sun and stars his death would have occurred in 29 ACE--of course, this is due to the minimalist explanations in the gospels of the Jewish feasts that were occurring at the time of the crucifixion.
I spent a great deal of time studying this stuff in my 20somethings and so the veracity of his existence isn't that hard to determine.
The Bible Archaeology Review (BAR) is an interesting resource for determining historical discoveries that verify some of the bible stories.
Not all of the Christian faiths root through Catholicism. There were small sects that existed in the deserts of ancient Israel, Negev and Sinai, that were severe in their practices and may, or may not, exist today.
One has to remember the Jewish faith of that historical era kept the Saturday holy--and somehow, the "Lord's" day was switched to Sunday, likely because of the synchretization of pagans, celts, heathens and the growing theology of the first century of Christianity.
At any rate, this is a great start to a discussion of the evolution of religions. Keep it up--but don't drive yourself crazy.
Regarding Catholicism, Randslam makes a good point. I can think of three major branches of Christianity, still existing, that are uninfluenced by the Catholic tradition: the Orthodox Christians of Eastern Europe and Russia, Ethiopian Christianity and Egyptian/Coptic Christianity.
Each has existed as long or longer than Catholicism, and of course the eastern European churches split with the western Catholic church relatively early in Christian history.
Austinstar - that's the whole point of my writing this hub - all religion is man's attempt to explain our world
Rod - even christians that claim to have a 'personal relationship' with Jesus can't say what he looks like - it's a 'relationship' with an invisible, imaginary friend
I just love your Hubs! Great job, once again.
secularist - yes, that's the other main point of this hub - the commonalities of religion, which point to an instinct or need in humans to have meaning and explain their world. Instincts like fear have produced superstitions, traditions and organised religion.
Eric Maisel in "The Atheist's Way" calls this the 'supernatural error' - seeking meaning & guidance in gods/prophets etc. Atheism is a 'non-profit' philosophy - we are responsible for our own ethics, making our own meaning etc. I'm thinking of writing a review about his book
ranslam - don't worry, I'm not going to drive myself crazy over it - I'm more interested in the links and evolution of humans and culture etc. I can't be bothered digging in depth as to what each religion believes, because I think it's all nonsense anyway.
That's why I've linked to sites that have probed deeper and provided all the nitty-gritty details.
randslam & secularist - I've heard many protestant christians distance themselves from catholics, so I find it ironic that they have common roots.
If you notice any factual errors in my hub (as I haven't researched in huge depth), please let me know what specifically needs changing
TahoeDoc - glad you enjoy my hubs. You might have noticed that they nearly all my hubs are interconnected - I write about the puzzle I unravelled in my life, about my health, how religion affected me, how I discovered food sensitivities were responsible for my years of health problems, learning I have Asperger's through my son's diagnosis - understanding why I am the way I am
You are doing a fine job BaileyBear, I love what you are doing with your research. I wish we lived close as I know we would be good friends :-) I would even help do the dishes.
You already are a good friend, Austinstar.
I see James wrote that other cultures have flood stories because of Noah's Ark. How does this explain flood stories were in existence before the bible, and Noah's flood was supposed to wipe out all the other cultures (as well as somehow squeeze millions of animals on it) - a wooden boat made without modern tools/materials nearly as big as the Titanic
Well researched and an interesting read.
Are you familiar with the writings of Joseph Campbell?
FCEtier - thanks for reading. I'm sure this hub will make some people feel uncomfortable. No, I haven't heard of Joseph Campbell.
Very interesting read, Baileybear! Many religions are similar when you get right down to it. Most have borrowed from others which they then condemn at some later point.
Rated up! And thanks for the link too!
Randy
Thanks, Randy. Yep, all the religions have evolved as human thinking has evolved. Maybe religions will become extinct?
randslam, I know what you are talking about when it comes to Josephus. It is unfortunate, however, that we know the mention of Jesus made by Josephus was interfered with by a later Christian scribe. Scholars are still convinced that Josephus did mention Jesus but what he really said about Jesus can never be known. It can only be guessed at.
BCE and ACE I will NEVER go along with. They smack of PC which I HATE. I adhere to BC and AD for this reason. I guess with some things I am a traditionalist.
Yes randslam, there is some evidence that the original holy day was Saturday. It was moved to Sunday to please Constantine.
Rod, I don't object to using BC & AD - after all, it reflected a period of christian beliefs. Unfortunately, many christians thinks this proves Jesus was born in between (but there is no zero, and it doesn't match up anyway). There's been mistakes made all along the way, and ultimately our date system is based on astrology and astronomy
I agree with Rod. The original works of Josephus do not mention JC at all. Church leaders were embarrassed because Jesus wasn't mentioned and inserted a few passages in his writings to lend credibility to their religion.
Fortunately, the earlier copies did not have these "inspired words" in them. This is only a small example of how the church corrupted historical records in an attempt to verify the existence of Jesus.
You are right Baileybear, BC and AD lack accuracy, but the very idea that the new way of doing things is based on Political Correctness logic rather than an attempt to be more accurate is something I find offensive. I think back to the novel 1984 and the idea of altering words and/or their meanings or putting in subs in order to better control the populace.
Randy & Rod - I would say the entire New Testament as a 'fulfillment' of the OT is another example of corruption by religion. Religion has had a role in 'controlling the masses'
You bet religion has had a role in controlling the masses, Baileybear.
Marx once wrote that religion is the opiate of the people. There is some truth in that. And, no, I am not a Marxist or a Communist.
Why do you think the French today separate state matters from religion to the extent they do not tolerate religious symbols of any kind in their state schools. Walk in with a crucifix showing and you will be walking out quick smart even though many French are Catholic. This is why they don't want to see the burka being worn in state schools over there. The Church did not support the people during the French Revolution. It was much more comfy to support the aristocrats up until of course the revolution succeeded. Hence the reason why the French separate state from religion.
Certainly from the 1960s onward in OZ business matters and religion have been separated though this was done by general agreement. I started work in an Australia where you could be working with someone for years and neither know or care about their religious views.
Me? I neither want to be controlled by religion or the Political Correctness crowd. Maybe this makes me a lone wolf.
Joe Campbell is a wonderful starting point to unravelling the mystery of the structured, profit-gathering religions of our day.
His series, The Power of Myth, is a fantastic starting point to understanding where religion began.
FCEtier may have started something. Haha, I watched his series years ago on Public television and the beginnings of myth and the power they can wield is discussed quite thoroughly.
The flood story is told in so many origin stories it's astounding.
The New Testament also mentions that Jesus "was not a comely man" which indicates that he was not handsome. It would have been a distraction to his message...according to legend.
Once again, the power of myth is a power not to be dismissed. It is a subject to be discussed, analyzed and brought to the front.
Remember, the X Files? The truth is out there...lol. Seriously, the importance of information and real historical research that gives even an inkling of insight to our searching planet is a good thing.
Signing off...
randslam, there is also a possibility that Jesus had a death wish. Riding into Jerusalem rather than walking on the day he did this was asking for trouble. People were understandably amazed. This story actually rings true.
Rod - 'Religion is the opiate' is appropriate on so many levels - temporarily numbs pain, alters perception & behaviour, is addictive.
I don't want to be controlled by religion, nor the PC crowd either
ranslam - profit-gathering of religion is a biggie - and not much of it goes to charity.
The power of myth certainly is incredible - so many people swallow religion hook, line and sinker.
50 Atheist Quotes: http://leftofzen.com/quotes-atheism/2008/01/14/
A few I like:
"Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day; teach a man to fish and he will eat for a lifetime; give a man religion and he will die praying for a fish." Quote from Unknown
"Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived." Isaac Asimov
"Where knowledge ends, religion begins."Benjamin Disraeli
More on Joseph Campbell. There is a companion book for the series, too. Campbell's opus was "Hero With A Thousand Faces" that came out, I believe, in 1946. It is a classic that has withstood the test of time. Here's my take on the television series:
thanks, FCEtier
Christopher Anton just wrote a hub about http://hubpages.com/hub/Two-strange-facts-about-Je
He says that there is proof that Jesus was a real man. I tend to agree. He was a MAN. There is certainly no proof whatsoever that he was a GOD.
The other fact he mentions is that Jesus was never against homosexuality. I can agree with that too.
Why do the religionists INSIST on trying to dictate what people do in their personal lives?
Hello Bailybear.
I'm not sure where you got this fact from...
"the gospels were written approximately a century after Jesus was claimed to have lived."
The authors of the four gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke and John) were written by four men who knew Jesus and lived (obviously) when he did...not a hundred years later.
Matthew and John were two of the twelve apostles. They lived with Jesus and travelled with him.
Mark is the boy in the Garden of Gethsemane during Jesus arrest.
Luke is the apostle Paul's doctor. He interviewed many of the living witnesses of Jesus Christ personally to write his collected account called the gospel of Luke.
All four writers are contemporaries of Jesus Christ. Three knew him personally in everyday situations as direct witnesses of his saying and actions.
AMEN! Thanks for pointing all this out! You've collected many resources and references to support conclusions I arrived at independently from just thinking about what all religions preach, and how hypocritcal most are.
My husband is a (non-practicing) licensed minister, and states that Jesus did exist, and the only part of the bible that can be proven is the book of Romans, which were supposedly actual collected letters. Whether or not that is even true is debatable. Because of what he learned in seminary, his high ethical standards and conscience will not allow him to practice what he learned.
That every (Christian) religion on the planet has re-written all or parts of the bible to suit their own 'take' on things is just one aspect. I believe that began with the council of Nicea...but it could be earlier.
I have long said that if the bible were to be subjected to the standards of evidence in a court of law, the entire document would be dismissed as hearsay, because no one now alive was there, or knows/knew anyone alive then.
Thanks for a courageous post.
Austinstar - will check it out. I think a man Jesus may have existed, with the legends added later
Hubcrafter - I believed common tradition as you did until it was pointed out in the forums to me about the disciples being illiterate and the gospels dated much later. I've checked several sources, and it certainly seems to be the case - anonymous authors (most likely written by church, as few of the literate people of that era), dated about a century later, many fiction elements, fooled people by naming them after the disciples. I have put a few links in my hub, and here's another.
DzyMsLizzy - I agree with you about the whole lot would be dismissed as heresay in court of law. We are supposed to believe that all the details in the old testament, like names and ages of people were passed down accurately orally for thousands of years, yet they can't record when Jesus was born.
There are so many far-fetched stories and borrowing from other mythologies/religions. Many fiction elements. Numerous contradictions.
All christians have as their 'evidence' is the bible (which they claim is true as it mentions real places and real historical people - so does fiction LOL) and the 'feeling in their hearts.'
I believed this crap for years. Like your husband, I have high ethical standards too, and I want the truth to be known.
check out Jeremiah 8:8 - about the lying pen of the scribes made the word/law a lie
Hi, BB - Wow - your article and the comments it generated are fascinating. Yes, you are bold for bringing up all the questions that are out there about Christianity and the Bible. I had 12 years of catholic school education, then strayed for most of my life - over 40 years - from organized (or any) religion. In the past 9 months I've gotten back to a church - Episcopal this time - and have found a lot of personal evidence that God exists and is in my life. I do believe that Jesus was God. I know people disagree, and that's OK. What I think is universal is that goodness is constantly pitted against evil. Whatever spiritual formula anyone has for how to live a life of love and giving is fine with me. Thank you for this thought-provoking hub.
There is nothing worse than an apostate on a soapbox. Your Hub is full of errors. You wrote: "the gospels were written approximately a century after Jesus was claimed to have lived."
Absolutely false. All intelligent people, even unbelievers, know that all books in the Bible were written between 20 and 50 years after Jesus was Resurrected.
Beelzebub wrote: "There are no eyewitness records about Jesus, only here-say (the gospels were written by anonymous authors, not the disciples of Jesus)."
A baldfaced lie. All intelligent people know that the New Testament was written by Matthew, one of the 12 Apostles of Jesus Christ; Mark, who knew Jesus personally; Luke, who did not know Jesus personally but knew 11 of his 12 Apostles and of whom: Archaeologist Sir William Ramsay wrote that "Luke is a historian of the first rank; not merely are his statements of fact trustworthy...[he] should be placed along with the very greatest of historians." John, the best friend of Jesus; Paul, who knew Jesus very well; Peter, one of the closest people to Jesus; et al.
You wrote: "previously christians believed the Earth was flat"
What poppycock. You know better. You are not simply misinformed; You are lying throught your teeth. Utterly shameless you are.
You wrote: "no-one in the New Testament actually met Jesus"
Yet another lie.
You are right about the pagan origins of some Holidays. And you are right that the Christian Faith has evolved—though not necessarily for the better.
You are right that some truths of the Bible are also found in other religions, as well they should be. If there was a worldwide flood, Jews would not be the only people to know about it. You are wrong that this automatically means the Bible was "copied" from other religions. That is false.
You have served your master well.
embee, thanks for reading. I respect your personal convictions. I believed in God for a long time. I never saw evidence for God that couldn't be attributed to chance.
James, given that I think your Darwin hub was inaccurate nonsense, I'm not surprised you come here and accuse me of lies and poppycock.
Beelzebub? Rather vile of you, James. Utterly shameless of you.
All the books of the bible written after Jesus's resurrection? Even the OT? Gosh, that makes it even worse - you are familiar with the game of chinese whispers?
When did Paul meet Jesus other than in a hallucination? I suppose you believe Jesus was born on 25 Dec AD1? (given that the miscalculating monk didn't put a zero in).
How would other cultures have flood stories if they were all drowned, in this massive flood that somehow fitted millions of species of animals on it? Strange how all the marsupial mammals but no placental mammals managed to all end up in Australia. And New Zealand was a long way for flightless birds to go.
Yes, I previously accepted the tradition that the gospels were written by the apostles. Looks like that's a lie.
Seems you only like the version of history that fits your narrow worldview - the view that conveniently leaves out the slavery, racism and murders in the name of your god.
But go ahead and believe your delusions.
GusTheRedneck - I missed replying to your comment earlier. Thank-you for acknowledging that my hub came to similar conclusions to your advanced studies of religion.
BB - thanks for this great Hub. Religions are human constructs and are usually about social control. They also breed and promote intolerance. In fact to survive a religion has to proclaim itself "the" truth in competition with other beliefs which are "less true."
I am not therefore surprised by James's intemperate and intolerant comment, just really saddened by it. He promotes a narrow world view with vigour and some persuasive but ultimately shallow writing as can be seen in his latest Hub about "A Nation Divided". I left a comment there saying basically this.
Religion also flourishes in where light is suppressed, except for the light of its own candles which leave the rest in darkness.
All conflict is about values, and since religions preach particular values, religion can usually be found wherever there is conflict.
Reason can bring a light of a different kind, a light which could help us understand each other better and so reduce the clash of values which eventually results in violence.
Keep writing and promoting knowledge against obscurantism.
Love and peace
Tony
tonymac - thankyou for your insightful and intelligent comments.
James' comment didn't hurt me, because I already know what he's like. I don't bother commenting on his hubs anymore, as it would be less frustrating banging my head against a brick wall.
It saddens me too that people insist on living in their own little delusional bubbles. Religion promotes conflict and even divides families.
I'll stand with James on this one. I believe, and you are free to think of me what you will. But I read your writings because I am interested in you, not in what you do or don't believe. I have no issue with the fact that you don't believe, nor do I feel some misguided need to "convert" you. Everyone is free to believe what they believe and to live in peace with it. I live in peace with my faith, and I would hope that you could at least live in peace with your unbelief. But the fact that you constantly attack is an issue. Why bother? What is it that drives you to constantly attack Christianity? Better to leave it alone and live in peace. I believe what I believe, and you believe what you believe; we are still human beings who live together on this earth and we ought to be able to live peacefully with each other and care for one another. I'm trying, are you?
DavePrice - You're with James? James thinks I'm satan. You do too? You say I'm attacking? James says people that don't think as he does are evil. I find that kind of thinking disturbing. Why can't I speak out against it? Religion messed up my head for years. I'm seeking clarity and truth, and sharing my journey.
If you find peace with your beliefs, good for you. I find more peace deconstructing illusions, and supporting those that suffer in silence, because people choose their belief in an invisible being over their own family.
Be well.
Now be careful, see, this is how it gets started. I'm with James, I'm a Christian, and I think you are on a soapbox. And I'm saying why bother. I don't think you are evil, didn't say that did I? I'm quite clear about how you think religion messed you up, I've read quite a lot of your writing. But I haven't argued, or accused, or anything negative. I'm saying, its better to live in peace and care about each other than to argue about beliefs and opinions that are personal and private. And I'm asking, can we do that?
DavePrice
You didn't initially clarify how you were 'with James.' James called me a liar and Beelzebub. He calls names a lot - anyone that doesn't believe what he believes are called evil and 'demon-possessed.' He is upset about the 'browning of America' (his words). I actually find his views rather disturbing, and hope that the majority of American's don't share his views.
Yes, I think it would be nice for everyone to live peacefully and get along with their differences. Unfortunately, I don't see that happening in the real world. Christians can't even get along with christians. Families are divided because of beliefs.
Do you find it okay if James gets on his soapbox and attacks people that can't believe in God? I can't believe in God anymore. I don't find it okay when someone makes false statements about science and people that are not 'christians.'
Maybe you're the kind of person that doesn't let things bother them, and strives for peace. I'm more about speaking the truth than shutting up to keep the peace.
Keeping these things 'personal and private' for decades ate away at me. I was confused by my experience and felt I had to keep my mouth shut to keep my family happy.
There are people that have been damaged by religion - they suffer in silence. Sharing my story helps those people to realise they are not crazy. Christians have thanked me for sharing my story, as they have become more aware of how not to treat people.
If you've had a good experience with your faith, then that's nice. I checked your profile and you've written about your faith, not kept it personal and private.
I write about the crappy things as well as the good. Maybe I'm a glass half-empty kind of person. That's me.
I don't expect everyone to agree with me.
I think James goes way overboard in calling people liars and other names.
If you read this hub again, hopefully you will see that I wrote this as my recent discoveries as seeing religion from a different point of view - from the outside looking in - looking at it from a skeptic's viewpoint.
I researched for this hub carefully, as I do with all my hubs. Might I be wrong in some areas? Possibly. If there are things wrong, I'm keen to fix them up. James would prefer I delete it altogether, as he refuses to consider the possibility that what I have said might be true.
Did I say religionists are stupid and evil (using James' language)? No. Some believers have left kind comments - they have seen my purpose is not to attack them, but rather challenge them.
I have an open mind, and will maintain and open mind. I don't see evidence for God, and I'm brave enough to admit that. I'm also brave enough to admit that I don't have all the answers. People like James annoy me with their absolutism. In none of my hubs have I pretended to know all the answers.
Am I messed up now? Not as much as I used to be. I am excited at putting the puzzle of my life together, and I'm happy to share my journey - the complex links between my health issues, food sensitivities, Asperger's, my science background and my experiences with religion. These things are all important pieces of my puzzle, and many people have been inspired reading them.
Sorry, I can't just pretend the bad things didn't happen, or leave out the controversial things. I'm sorry you see me as a victim on the attack. I never see myself as a victim. I see myself as a survivor, and also an educator, to share with others what I've learned.
Thanks for reading my hubs, and I will understand if you find it too confronting to keep reading.
Hello Baileybear, You certainly have included a lot of interesting information in this hubpage. I have read a portion of it and will return to read the rest. Thank you.
samiaali - thanks for visiting. There are plenty of interesting links to check out
Baileybear, it seems this hub has the dynamite factor.
From what I have gathered the youngest accepted gospel in the New Testament was written some 90 years after the resurrection. The rest were written between 40 and 90 years after the resurrection. Accounts of major events differ significantly between gospels. Also there are at least two gospels that didn't make the cut.
There is the Gospel of Saint Mary and there is the Gospel of Saint Thomas. Since Saint Thomas was well respected by the Agnostics and not so much by the Catholics he had to be left out. The Catholics didn't want women to have too much power in their church so Saint Mary had to be left out as well.
Thanks for adding those comments, Rod.
The dynamite factor - does that mean I hit nerves, or blew something apart?
I didn't know about St Mary & St Thomas gospels, but those timeframes are along the lines of what I read too.
I am doubtful many christians know the history of the bible - that it didn't come all together as one book, but was voted on by a committee of men.
Now there's the friend I thought you would be. I thought you might come around if we started talking a little. You figured out I wasn't attacking, and you came back less defensive. Thank you very much. I don't find your writing confrontational personally - but anytime writing concerns issues that are closely related to personal identity most people become defensive and confrontational and conversation ceases. So, that probably will be the way many view your writing. I could apologize, but I care not to apologize for ignorance and lack of compassion, be it from the "christian" side or any other. What I wanted most was an opportunity to connect with you, so that you understand from here on out that if I respond in kind to your writing, I'm not being confrontational, I just have a different point of view. Hopefully I will be able to do that with words that put you at ease and don't attack, although I confess and repent now if I make a mistake. Personally I find your life journey fascinating - I am keenly interested in the effect Asperger's has had in your life and how you have learned to deal with it. I have a dear friend who deals with Asperger's, and I am profoundly awed at how he has dealt with it. I am deeply intrigued that it has has opposite effects on faith in the two of you, and if you don't mind I would like to continue to explore these things with you. The better I understand, the better I know how to care. Thank you for your time and your patience. I hope you find a friend in me.
Baileybear, I think you hit nerves and blow apart delusions. I think that's explosive enough.
Dave - thanks for continuing to dialogue and clarifying things. I did not see you as attacking, but clearly James was, so I was a bit confused when you said you were 'with James'.
I was also a bit upset that my hubs were perceived as 'attacking' as that has not been my aim, but merely to promote thinking. Those that are secure in their faith will perhaps gain some insights, but I certainly won't deconvert them.
I was very loyal to my faith for many years. My wee boy is atheist from the start, and we have to remind him to respect that other people may believe in things that he considers nonsense (he's rather rigid in his views; I'm more open-minded).
Thank-you for taking the time to understand where I am coming from. It's not easy being heard with my true intentions. I've even been accused by (christian) family for being 'bitter' etc, which is not me at all. My intention is to attempt to provide clarity, education, insights, understanding. I feel sadness that my family is not as close as some, but I need to be true to myself.
Rod - seems I do that quite a lot, even when I don't expect to. I'm grateful that people like you can see where I'm coming from, and have been a source of encouragement for me to keep writing. Some people find my honesty & directness too confronting and fire missiles. I'm getting used to it :)
Baileybear, this is YOUR hub! Don't let others try to spoil it. It's a great hub and yes, they can't handle the truth of their religion. They only believe in what they've been told all their lives and don't bother thinking things through. They regurgitate the bible over and over. I'm glad you and I and a growing number of others are not licking up the vomit.
Thanks, Austinstar. Uggh, I hate vomit, and won't be licking any up!
I vomit when I see vomit...a re-regurgitator...it's just a gut-jerk reaction.
The dates of the books of the NT are written beneath each book in the KJV. I don't think it's an issue. The book of Revelations was written by John a good portion of time after the death of Jesus when he was in prison in Rome.
At any rate, the question is not the veracity of the Bible--that could have been written so many different ways because there were up to 13 different gospels that weren't approved by the council of Nicaea.
The problems lie with doctrinal understanding of the faiths--where one of the final warnings of Revelations is to warn all those who would interpret the book personally. It damns them and their entire families. That should be warning enough--for anyone--but it didn't work.
Humankind have been interpreting the words from the time of the first writings--OOPS. Death and damnation to the whole family.
The scary stuff is the fanatics who are trying to bring about the end of the world. That's the scary part, because of interpretation of texts written thousands of years ago--modern converts to whatever faith are trying to bring back the dead to create some sort of Utopian forum for their special faith. That is insane.
Utopia when translated from the Latin two roots means--no where! Welcome to our annihilation when prophets start raving about "the end is near."
That's what is so contradictory to enjoying a rich and full life. Forget about the "god" stuff--enjoy whatever phase of life you're in--it will all be over soon enough.
Life is short.
randslam - yes, there are so many different interpretations of the bible, and each sect claims to have the 'correct' interpretation. The absolutists are scary - their message is intolerance, damnation, conflict, fear.
Baileybear - Per your kind reply to my comment, above.
I appreciate a great effort, even one about which I have no particular conclusion. As much as I appreciate your thanks for my comment, that comment was not meant to either applaud your conclusions nor to oppose them. Religion as we know it, is, to me, a human-invented thing, probably related to man's need to attempt understanding the why of his existing and the existance of everything within reach of his senses. The very last thing I want to do is to get into some sort of fussing or argumentation about religion, any kind of religion, or any kind of the absense of it.
I really do love the fact that some folks take to religion, jumping in on it with both feet. I also think highly of those who spurn organized religion but yet live a decent life. (Think George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, etc.) I think of the nature-respecting aborigines who worshipped the game they killed and ate, for when they said their blessings over their food, they really meant what they said.
It is good to have an opinion or more concerning religion, for religion is one of the big, big things in our world and has been a big thing probably forever.
Now, next on my list is to try to figure out if creatures below humans on the food chain have religion. Wouldn't that be something? Do they avoid religion or do they bark or yowl in some sort of prayerful way?
Interesting stuff, religion, and also the lack of it when it is missing.
Gus :-)))
Gus - my dog worships us, and my cat expects us to worship him :) I see the ancient Egyptians worshipped cats.
Not being able to inhabit the brain of an animal other than myself, I have no way of knowing about religion in animals. I have watched my favorite dog who would sit under the lights of our holiday tree and gaze up at them. He was very deliberate about these lights. They say dogs are color blind, but it seemed as if he could tell that the lights were special somehow. He never looked up into the tree when the lights were down, but I did catch him a few times looking up at the stars which are quite bright here in our valley in the hill country. I think he could see the stars. I think he wondered about them. This is how religion got started in homo sapiens, so one day, dogs too may develop religion. Who knows?
I do know that I could not bear to live in a "heaven" without other animals around. I'm pretty sure I'll never see my dog again, but I did have him for a while and that was pretty special.
P.S. I currently have 3 dogs and 2 cats that I have rescued. None are as bright as my two Chow dogs were, but they are special in their own ways.
Austinstar - my dog and cat are from a shelter. My dog had been mistreated as a puppy and had baggage to overcome. He remembers people he hasn't seen for years. Animals definitely have feelings & some cognition. I remember when I was teaching my son baby sign language, and the dog was picking it up too.
My cat worships small patches of sun, and my dog worships food - not much different from humans way back :)
I could never imagine a heaven without animals.
Also, some 'primitive' cultures had cannibalism & human sacrifice.
Some say that the Mayans of today still practice cannibalism and human sacrifice. The Mayans are a fascinating group who still speak their own language and live in the jungles of Guatemala, Belize and Southern Mexico. They are hardly "primitive", but a great many of them never converted to Christianity and still practice the old ways.
I have seen many of the Mayan ruins and they are pretty spectacular. The Mayans of today appear to have regressed from those days, but one can only imagine what caused such an intelligent group to decline so much.
Austinstar - I read your hub and a few others about the Mayans. They were so 'advanced' in some ways, yet ate each other. Wonder how the religionists explain that one?
Body and blood of Christ are eaten and sipped every Sunday. It's called the Eucharist. The modern metaphor of cannibalism? Where do you think the savages got the idea?
This is another one of those universal ideas of eating, or partaking, in the strength of your enemy, or god, to create empowerment.
Nothing new under the sun.
randslam - good point. Jesus said to eat his body and drink his blood. Rather creepy really.
randslam, the early Christians may have gotten the idea of the Eucharist from the religion of Mithras where initiates drink the blood of the bull.
In one ancient religion a female goddess eats the flesh of her dead son, becomes impregnated from doing so and gives birth to her son. This explains the seasons. Spring is obviously when the son is born. The slaying of the son brings on the cold, barren months and so on.
Rod - ewww
A female goddess into cannibalism not your cup of tea, Baileybear? Can't blame you but I didn't just make this up to gross you out. Mind you it is rather gross at that.
Rod - it's quite creepy these practices that were considered normal in many cultures (human sacrifice & cannibalism). Yes, christianity has influences eg the 'test' when God said to sacrifice a child, but changed mind at last minute...hmmm reminds me of Andrea Yates drowning her children because she thought God told her to
I've decided to convert to become a Pastafarian, a believer in the deity, the Flying Spaghetti Monster, made of spaghetti & meatballs that created the universe while drunk (to explain for the numerous examples of intelligent design). If I waiver in my faith, call me spagnostic. I believe in the gluten-free version of FSM as I am celiac and gluten to me is evil. Therefore, I have formed another FSM denomination.
Nice to see a piece on religion that is not trolling. I did see on the history channel a bit about a Roman soldier who left a monument, tile work with writing, and a statue. The writing in tile work spoke of his resentment of killing Christ. That may be archeological historic proof.
Bird, appreciate the comment from someone that engages in 'spiritual warfare.' I'm rather intrigued with the evolution of society & why people develop beliefs, but not so much interested in the content of the beliefs (turned off after years immersed in christianity).
I do have something in common with you - I hate politics too.
Baileybear, a most excellent resource. Lots of fun reading material.
My 11th grade world history teacher got me hooked on history by showing me the motivations of people throughout our past. Getting inside their heads helped to understand why things happened the way they did.
Keep up the good work. And thank you for not letting JW get you down. Your honesty and clarity are much needed.
I know you have some righteous gripes against Christians you've known in the past, but don't let it affect the quality of your work. I don't think all Christians of the past thought the world was flat. Qualifying your statements, where necessary, with something like "some Christians" or "80% of Christians" or "Christian leadership between 800-1500 CE" would help the objective tone of your work.
thanks lonestar
I'm feeling a bit cynical about the fundamentalist extremists like JW. Will take another look at it. My hubs are always evolving :)
Great hub Baileybear, you put it together well. I for one didn't feel the least bit threatened by it and I believe in God and Jesus, just not like alot of people.
Keep up the great work and the informative hubs. You did awesome on this one.
Wintermyst - glad you found it informative and weren't threatened by it. Only one person got his nose out of joint about it and called me a liar etc - I lost respect for him a while back because of his attitude
Hi BaileyBear. Very good! Quite correct, too, in my opinion.
There is no real evidence, outside of the Bible, for the existence of Jesus. Yes, there is Josephus, but nothing to say that those comments were genuine. Someone could have inserted them. There is no corroborative evidence. However, he does also write about John the Baptist, so there is a link there which could mean something.
I have read a few things that make me think that Jesus did actually exist. Two books in particular. One is James Tabor's 'The Jesus Dynasty' (the work of the Deceiver according to some) and another I think called 'Who Was Jesus?' I can't remember the authors. Both well worth reading, if you are interested in this subject.
Trish - apparently Josephus was born decades after Jesus was supposed to have lived. Perhaps the person Jesus existed, and his legends were tacked on later?
Anyone interested in early Christianity should read Bart Ehrman's books. The fact is, churches knowingly tell a lot of lies to their congregations about the Bible and Christian origins. I was very surprised when I found out that many of things I was raised to believe were not historically accurate.
gobangla - just looked up Bart Ehrman - looks like he has interesting background. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bart_D._Ehrman
Will look out for his books
WOW just what I have been loking for. So well thought out. I talk w/ all sorts of "Religious" ppl & have been nothing but confused... Been trying to find, now build a tree or pyramid..representation of religions through the ages. Came across this site & stayed quite awhile & bookmarked ya all :)(Any one want a kitten? they are driving me nucking futts!)
Bird - glad it was useful.
I am most interested in the early Christianity, from Jesus' life up to the Council of Nicaea. The more we strip away the fables and focus on evidence, the more it appears that Joshua/Jesus was in the midst of possibly leading a Jewish sect within a greater Judaic revolution against the Roman Empire. Out of all the books in the New Testament, I think the earliest to be written in its current form was Paul's letter to the Thessalonians during the reign of Nero. That was about 20 years after the crucifixion. So that is our earliest official church evidence of the early religion, which seemed to be spreading and well underway. The earliest gospel to survive in its closest form was Mark. That story is a pretty bland pseudo-biography and omits a lot of the hocus pocus found in the other gospels. A piece was added to it much later that talks of the resurrection. But if you omit that false addition and look at the original story, it ends rather alarmingly and abruptly. Mary Magdalene and a few others go to Jesus' tomb and are shocked when they see Jesus' body is missing and an unnamed fanatical follower dressed in white is standing inside the tomb. He tells them Jesus has risen and the visiting party runs away in terror. The end. 20 years after the crucifixion, we start seeing the epistles of Paul. 10 years later, Nero begins his persecution of the Jewish sect of "Christians" in Rome and kills Paul, Peter, and the others. Immediately after these persecutions, the Jewish revolt against Rome begins in Judea. The two events have to be related. During the subsequent Roman-Jewish war, the earliest versions of the gospels begin to appear along with the other books of the New Testament; war-propaganda literature possibly? In 69 AD, the Roman general who led the war against the Jewish revolt became the next Roman emperor. His son, left in command, sacked the Temple of Jerusalem and killed all of the Jewish fighters and their families at Massada. Over the next 50 years, early doctrine took shape and the modern Gospels were formed. Greater elements of Persian, Roman, and Greek religion found their way in and much of the old Jewish tradition was expelled from the new relious sect. In the 300s AD, official doctrine was established and all else was heresy. In spite of this, there were dozens of varying sects of Christianity that had very different interpretations on the nature of who Jesus was. It took the fall of the Eastern Roman Empire under Islam to ultimately squash any competing ideas of what we today consider to be Christian Orthodoxy. Even all Protestant Christian groups are just an offshoot of Catholicism. The basic beliefs are all the same.
Old Empresario - thanks for providing specific details.
I'm interested in how people evolved in their beliefs over time.
Here's a recent detailed article about how the bible was written and how it is forgery
Here is a dig that is quite elusive and betraying an eerie bias against Catholic belief and faith. The say here rampantly ignores the term ‘Catholic’, which engulfs a wider and all encompassing term “Universality” or the entire “Christian Body”.
The writer appears to be elusive of the very term ‘protestant’ which infers that a part or portion is seen as breaking away from the whole. A protest cannot necessarily have a majority, nor can it be a symptom of ultimate truth.
It is absurd and humbug to believe that the scriptures on which Christianity is founded and which has a tall majority in the world encompassing a wider spectrum of believers could have been written a hundred years after the death of Jesus Christ. This is rubbish and beyond all logic. Who would ever believe the writings about Jesus Christ and His life and still captivate the mind and belief of a majority of the world? And the inspired writers were Jesus’ own Apostles, one of whom (St.Thomas) himself set foot in Kerala, Southern state in India whereafter nearly 50%, in 53 A.D. My own forefathers were converted during the 53 A.D. and I feel proud that such ignorance only gives way to controversies. After 2000 years of Jesus’ death, it is simply foolish to be trying to ascertain the veracity of a truth that has not been disputed for centuries till reason and knowledge reached mankind.
I am astonished that people with narrow ends are trying to exhibit their hollow mind and see truth where it does not exist.
livelonger Level 6 Commenter 16 months ago
Interesting Hub!
I do believe that Islam considers Jesus as a prophet, though:
http://www.religionfacts.com/islam/comparison_char