Ex-Christian: Throwing the Baby Out With the Bathwater

71

By Baileybear

Tanya Levin's Story

I've just finished reading Tanya Levin's memoir, People in Glass Houses - an Insider's Story of a Life In and Out of Hillsong. What a powerful account written by a courageous individual. Tanya is a woman the same age as me, that grew up in a small pentecostal AoG church that became Hillsong - a megachurch - a multi-million dollar tax-free enterprise.

Like Tanya, I grew up in the pentecostal movement - I shared many of her observations, her pain, her unanswered questions. Like her, I felt more crazy the longer I tried to stay in it, and suffered depression while still in church and for many years outside of it. Our lives in church were living in a bubble separated from the rest of the world. Our rational minds overridden by indoctrination - any doubting and belief was of Satan, not of God, so we were told.

Tanya found the practices within pentecostalism, like demon exorcism scary and disturbing. So did I. She was appalled that "huge moral failings" of senior pastors/evangelists were swept under the carpet. There was no accountability for the ones at the top. The leaders were charasmatic personalities who mesmerised the masses . I'd noticed those things too.

Like Tanya, I grew up with pentecostal christianity - I didn't have a horrible life to convert from - I hadn't taken drugs, been promiscious, been drunk etc. We were taught we were disgusting sinners, paying for Eve stuffing up in the garden - we were destined for hell if we didn't believe. A forced choice - damned if you do, damned if you don't. Like Tanya, I cried out to God and there was no answer. God got all the credit when things went well; we were to blame for things that didn't.

Like her, I've been accused of "throwing the baby out of the bathwater" and being bitter, hurt, negative for sharing my experiences. Her writing wasn't bitter and vindictive. I applaud her for researching so well and being honest yet witty. It was a riviting read - how did this woman know my thoughts growing up? How did she know my confusion, my pain, my questioning?

No Ordinary Teenager

During my teen years, like Tanya - the boys weren't interested in me either. We were both "good" girls whose lives revolved around schoolwork and church.

We also both felt like we were going insane.

Tanya:

Not believing eats away at you like a long, slow death. Maybe it's like finding out your adopted. Only Satan is your birthmother. All I know is that no one, no one, no one was there, when I prayed and I pleaded and I beseeched the Lord to hear my cry and make me feel like I could believe.

I committed everything to the Lord. I never went over the speed limit. Any slight lapse in character and I prayed for hours. Since boys didn't like me at school, or at church, I didn't have all that much temptation to fight off. Why would I care whether stupid, unsaved boys liked me - after all, I couldn't be unequally yoked with these unbelievers. Pagans, pagans everywhere, and some of them really hot, but pagans nonetheless.

So I floated around highschool, knowing that nothing really mattered. Why be afraid of those who can kill the body by cannot kill the soul? Rather be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul in hell. So mainly I walked around doctrinally convinced that I was going to heaven whenever this exercise called life was over, which was undoubtedly soon. We were in the end times. Jesus was coming back by 2000, if we even had that long.

Testimonies of the old life from new Christians were always fun. The more depraved the story, the sweeter the salvation. It was the only time we got to hear about the big bad world with its sex and drugs and rock'n'roll lifestyle. Demon manisfestations always got a good response. While the others turned away from stories of perversity and good middle-class horror, I wanted to know more. Why did all the recounting of the horror of sin make me empathise and envy all at once?

I prayed to God to keep me straight. I did everything I could think of, and I was the most sinless, boring (if smart-mouthed and irritating) kid you could know. My life was as close to without sin as I could possibly make it and I was going as close to insane as I had ever feared.

Christianese

God: Santadaddy

God's church: Hillsong

The Enemy: Satan. 'The Enemy' sounds less nasty the way KFC sounds better than Kentucky Fried Chicken

Resources: CDs, DVDs, books by pastors

The Word of God: Resources

On fire for God: Totally brainwashed and ready to go to bible college

Bible college: tax haven

Tania Levin

more christianese - christian cliches & phrases

Frightening Practices Accepted as Normal

Tanya discussed many practices that are accepted as "normal" within the pentecostal movement. Her story was about Hillsong, but what she raised applies to other pentecostal churches/cults. My experiences/observations were gained manly from Assemblies of God (AoG), Apostolic and New Life churches, although I had occasionally visited mainstream churches and I'd been involved in an interdenominational christian group at university.

Hillsong grew from an AoG church that embraced prosperity doctrine. Destiny grew from Apostolic roots. Ironically, protestant fundamentalist christianity separated out of catholism centuries ago because they didn't like how the catholic church was materialistic. The fundamentalists, who take the bible literally, also take verses out of context and claim them as their own. If it was good enough for people in the bible to have something, it was good enough for us.

Those burnt by Hillsong claim the back door is as big as the front door. People get sucked in by the music, ripped off and spat out when they realised the honeymoon phase is over.

You can read Tanya's book to read her views on questionable practices within pentecostalism, particularly a mega-church that preaches a prosperity doctrine and relies on contemporary music to draw the masses. She's talked to many broken people, including former music leader Geoff Bullock (whose music I enjoyed singing and playing on piano in my late teens). Geoff was later diagnosed bipolar (any mental illness is seen as demonic possession by the pentecostals, as I was to discover when I suffered from depression).


God Moving or Mass Hypnotism?

my blog, godconfusion

The Atheist's Way: Living Well Without Gods
Amazon Price: $8.69
List Price: $15.00

Disturbing Pentecostal Practices

  • indoctrination of children - poisoning their minds with fear. This is psychological abuse. Marilyn Manson was so traumatised by hell doctrine in his christian school, he set about trying to get himself expelled. He credited these experiences for becoming a shock musician.
  • speaking in tongues - when I was a young child, I thought people speaking in tongues was silly nonsense. By the time I was a teenager, I was speaking in tongues too. I was conditioned to accept it as normal. I actually can still speak in tongues, even though I know longer believe in it. I can easily flick over to a right-brained "trance-like" state, when I'm improvising on the piano or doing an abstract painting - the "right-brained" state is relaxing and enjoyable. Tongues is easy to do in this same state - just babble in syllables from one's mother language, imitated from others.
  • mystical displays- including "slain in the spirit" (people falling over) and deliverance (casting out demons), people rolling around on the floor, screaming in the middle of services, ranting and raving, faith healings that weren't really healings etc. These phenomenons can just as easily be explained by hypnotism. People are in their "right-brain" relaxed states (often induced by hypnotic music and lights) and are open to suggestion.
  • being pressured to tithe - giving 10% of pre-tax income to the church. The leaders in the mega-churches have a bling lifestyle - expensive cars and motorbikes, luxury cruises, multimillion dollar houses all thanks to the money donated by their congregation. I totally disagree with donated money being used to give the leader an extravagant lifestyle. Many have been conned into parting with their life savings as well.
  • being pressured to volunteer - While at university, in addition to studying full-time for a science degree, I was attending Sunday church services twice a day, bible study group each week, weekly christian fellowship group at university, extra prayer meetings plus being pressured into donating my talents and time leading bible study group and playing piano. Any spare time was socialising with believers. The straw that broke the camels back was reluctantly accepting an exec role in christian fellowship - I fell apart from exhaustion. I didn't see much of my mother growing up - she was constantly involved in church activities.
  • ex-communicating people- that are wounded and/or ask tricky questions. During my burnout and the depression that followed, it was said I was a bad christian and possessed by the devil. Christians think I am the anti-christ and that Satan has got me. Tanya was physically removed from Hillsong after she told them she was researching a book. I wrote about my deconversion - how I was treated was a big factor.
  • "Amway" evangelism- I got sucked into doing Amway by some pentecostal christians. I really didn't want to do it (I'm not the sales type). My new "best friends" took me to conferences and convinced me to part with money to buy motivational resources, products and attend meetings and conferences. It was shockingly similar to pentecostal christianity - people pretending to be nice to convert other people. The conferences were hyped up with loud music, lights, inspirational speakers, just like the mega-churches.

Demon Possession or Hypnotism?

God Delusion

...what's the difference between Moses talking to a burning bush, Frank Houston's visions for Australia, and the homeless guy in the park talking to himself?...we either schedule them in involuntarily to a psych hospital when they see God, or we give them a church, a bunch of people to look after and a car. It's all about what's socially acceptable.

Tanya Levin

Detoxing from Toxic Christianity

My experiences affected me for years. Gradually, as I've been brave enough to let go of the fear doctrines, I feel more free. Untangling from the web of pentecostal christianity was no easy process, particularly when my whole family still believe. I'm the backslider that rebelled against my parents and God. I'm the one with the unforgiving heart and the stinking thinking - apparently.

Tanya became a social worker and worked for five years with the Salvation Army. She observed they were focused on gospel and charity, whereas Hillsong was focused on recruitment and fundraising. She found working with christians of a different kind detoxifying.

Still, Tanya threw the baby out with the bathwater. So did I. Like Tanya, I don't go to church anymore. I don't subscribe to any organised religion/superstitions - I've been turned off them all. Neither do I follow the teachings of a single person. I was betrayed by people I trusted - I believed what I was told. I won't be making that same mistake. If the baby's dead, why keep it?

I still have many unanswered questions. The glib answers offered by believers just raise more questions. Followers of any religion all think they have the truth and they all disagree with each other. Even christians disagree with other christians. Surely they can't all be right?

God never answered me. I believed in an invisible being for years, that I really can't prove wasn't more than a figment of my imagination. I still can't understand how people can smile all the time and give thanks to a God that seems to "speak" to some and not others.

Frank Houston was an AoG boss, charismatic preacher and father of Brian Houston, Hillsong's leader. He had psychotic episodes and it was revealed that he sexually abused boys trying to "cast the spirit of homosexuality out of them." It was swept under the carpet, and Frank's crime was kept hidden from authorities.

Many leaders of megachurches hypocrites, by preaching against certain lifestyles, and then engaging in those lifestyles secretely. They might get exposed, then there is a bit of fallout, and a few years later, they are back evangelising again. Are they narcissist attention whores? Or just in it for the money?

Some start off seeming genuine and seem trustworthy, before their egos spin out of control and they metamorphise into an autocratic monster. Cult and moral scandals follow these leaders like haemorrhoids. After "huge moral failings", they disappear from the limelight temporarily only to reappear restored and ready to sell their slick message.

Most christians are sincere people - frighteningly so. Few christians are balanced people that still think for themselves rather than be lead by emotions. I find it scary how masses of people follow the leader, because they are a persuasive convincing personality. Tony Robbins, life coach and NLP guru is the same style of charasmatic personality, with the same kind of hype.

Hillsong Mega-church

Not Black & White

Fundamentalists like their world view. I can't. Seeing the world in black and white misses out on all the colours of the rainbow. And being human is an incredible concept, one that entails all sorts of failure, disappointment and mistakes, some for no reason at all. It is also strung together with irrational hope, unmanageable love and beauty that surprises us and humbles us when we least expect it.

Tanya Levin

Consider Us Gone

Tanya became agnostic and found it liberating accepting a position of uncertainty. She didn't have to have all the answers or try to make strange doctrines fit the bible. She didn't have to blindly accept what a flawed person in the church had dictated how others should live their lives.

Several years after leaving pentecostal christianity, I became brave enough to ask some hard questions on the religious forums. I got the same old, same old. Except now there's even more crazy theories and doctrines to try and explain all the things that don't make sense - faith is a powerful thing.

I now accept myself, flaws and all, more than I ever did while trying to live my life for God. Free from how someone else tells me how to life my life. Free from cultish doctrines that create fear and induce mental illness. More tolerance of flawed people. Compassion for the people that are condemned by the church (like homosexuals) while leaders secretly abuse children and visit prostitutes (often of same sex).

Pentecostal christianity shaped who I am. I'm not completely free of it - it still upsets me how people get conned and manipulated. Children, teens and those in a vulnerable state (eg undiagnosed mental illness, after a relationship breakup) are easy targets. It saddens me to see children exploited.

I'm fortunate to be married to a man that accepts me as an equal. He wasn't sucked in by "god botherers." He's supported me through my battle with depression (and was appalled at how I was treated). I'm not subserviant to my husband - fortunately I had enough sense to marry a man that treats me with respect. We raise our child according to our values.

I accept myself as a woman, a flawed human being, but not a worthless one. I can't serve a despot superbeing that demands I worship him or he will throw me into hell.

The psychological scars are fading. Sometimes, I feel unjustified guilt and shame. I can't trust any institution that tries to tell me what to do, in the guise of love. Pentecostal christianity has tentacles that won't let go. I've been reading about religion, trying to make sense of what was a large part of my life.

I'm finding my own purpose and meaning without a god delusion. I don't have all the answers. I'm enjoying more peace and freedom. It's a good place to be.

Comments

DaKingsKid profile image

DaKingsKid 18 months ago

You know that it is not always easy to share the things that you have shared. I am Glad that you are free.. Its not easy being wounded by the very ones that are supposed to love you and be your example. God Bless and Thank You for sharing..

Baileybear profile image

Baileybear Hub Author 18 months ago

thanks, DaKingsKid - it hasn't been easy "coming out" with how this all affected me, especially because I get condemned all over again by those that I think should accept me.

DaKingsKid profile image

DaKingsKid 18 months ago

You where never meant to perform to their expectations. They should love you regardless. Jesus told us to love one another as He has loved Us. Unconditionally.

Baileybear profile image

Baileybear Hub Author 18 months ago

DaKingsKid - I was their puppet, like so many are. I also find it hard how people take the nice bits of the bible, and ignore the ugly bits.

brownlickie 18 months ago

Thank you for sharing your story with the world. Imagine if everybody read these positive thoughts, then your experience with hillsong would go to helping others see the light also. congratulations brownlickie

Baileybear profile image

Baileybear Hub Author 18 months ago

thanks brownlicke. I can't pretend these things didn't happen to me. I get accused of being bitter & unforgiving for writing them. I want people to think about what these kinds of institutions do to people

Austinstar profile image

Austinstar Level 7 Commenter 18 months ago

Baileybear, every word you write helps to uncover the scourge of organized religious nuts who want your dollar bills and don't give a real damm about your "immortal soul". They don't even know what an "immortal soul" is! I wish there were some easy way to pierce their army of torture and misinformation. The cycle repeats itself with every indoctrinated child. Keep up the good word!

AKA Winston profile image

AKA Winston Level 5 Commenter 18 months ago

Once you can genuinely allow yourself to make mistakes without the obsession of guilt, shame, and fear controlling your responses, you are then free to know you are no different than me - or anyone else - and that understanding that every human is a screw up who makes mistakes is what forgiveness really is.

We are not "less than" a perfect God; instead, we are equally human.

Baileybear profile image

Baileybear Hub Author 18 months ago

Austinstar - I think what makes it so confusing is there are some really nice people (that believe) out there amongst the nutcases. The betrayal really is like finding out you're adopted and Satan is your birthmother.

AKA - I'm gradually coming to that point, understanding and accepting what it is to be human, and it is very liberating. I still find it upsetting/annoying how religion is used to judge people so much eg the infertile or sick get told they have secret sin in their life; the dying get told they are going to hell unless they convert - where's the love in such fear doctrines? Crap things happen - no-one is to blame supernaturally. Good things happen too - why should the supernatural get any credit? People would rather live in gaga land it seems

AKA Winston profile image

AKA Winston Level 5 Commenter 18 months ago

BB,

The real tragedy is that if you were born into your religion, i.e., exposed in your formative years, then the psychological damage is permanent - the best you can attain is to understand the cause-and-effect relationship of your automatic responses, and learn to use cognitive decisions to override those responses rather than allow your automatic emotive responses to guide your thoughts and actions.

Baileybear profile image

Baileybear Hub Author 18 months ago

Yes, AKA I agree. That's why I wrote that I am never completely free of this. I wish I had been born into a family that had good values without religion. My family became religious when I was a young child. My dad is rational and was resistant at first. My mother is like a pig in mud as far as pentecostalism goes - she goes by her emotions.

I could have just as easily been born into an indian family and been indoctrinated hindu or a middle eastern family and been indoctrinated muslim.

I had a stint of cognitive behavioural therapy which was immensely helpful. I still have to override everything cognitively. It's easier to do now that my health is much better. When I was sick with depression, my emotions & cognition were a mess.

danatheteacher profile image

danatheteacher Level 1 Commenter 18 months ago

Wow, an impressive hub for sure!

Baileybear profile image

Baileybear Hub Author 18 months ago

thanks, dana

Austinstar profile image

Austinstar Level 7 Commenter 18 months ago

Winston is like the fountain of wisdom. I rely on him to reset my emotions! Being female and having been damaged early on with indecision and extremely conflicting religions in my family, I have really found a mind that thinks like me. Thank you, Winston!

BB, you have found friends here and you are a good writer, so keep it coming. I enjoy every word and sympathize with you completely.

Baileybear profile image

Baileybear Hub Author 18 months ago

Austinstar - agree that it is great being encouraged by like-minded people. I would like to write more than I do - it's a great outlet for me, and I'm glad people appreciate my hubs

Kristeen profile image

Kristeen 18 months ago

Baileybear, You were dealt a bad card by your parents and by your church. It is difficult for me to believe that people practice this kind of religion in the name of God. I have known that the pentecostal church practiced some strange beliefs, but I did not know how bad it was and is. I see AOG churches around every corner and have always thought of them as Christian. This to me seems more like devil worship and I can hardly believe people actually fall for it. This is so wrong. It must have been very frightening for you as a child. I plan to read Tanya's book.

Baileybear profile image

Baileybear Hub Author 18 months ago

thanks for commenting, Kristeen. Definitely recommend reading Tanya's book. I suspect some practices might have been toned down a little eg I read a review by a recent visitor to Hillsong, and it was all about the music and charasmatic speakers (and money) and they didn't notice the demon exorcism stuff from the 80s/early 90s. It was even frightening for me as a teenager. I've been told some very scary stories too eg by a man that showed me some photos of a crystal that glowed and grew teeth as he was praying. I have been interviewed to contribute to a book of many people damaged by pentecostal christianity

Kristeen profile image

Kristeen 18 months ago

Baileybear,

I could not even finish watching the one video(demon possession). It was sickening to me and haunted me all weekend. I have had my suspicions about the pentecostal churches only because of what a couple of people have told me. I have never been to one, but what I was told sounded demonic to me and I certainly didn't want to be any part of it.

Let them interview you for the book (only if you can bear it). You may be able to help someone else who is in a situation like you were trapped in. If you are able to talk about your experiences that sometimes help to heal you too. Blessings to you.

Baileybear profile image

Baileybear Hub Author 18 months ago

Kristeen, these were mild compared to some I found on net. There were some horrible ones with children "accepting the holy spirit" (ie very emotional/upset) - I put a shortcut to one. I was phoned by the author and was interviewed. He said I'm definitely going in. He developed OCD from his exposure and wants others to know how people are damaged from this rot.

Kristeen profile image

Kristeen 18 months ago

Baileybear, This is not "God" worship. This is "devil" worship. These people are not followers of Christ, but of the devil. It makes my heart sick to think that because of your exposure to it in the name of God you are now totally against God and all He stands for. I am not criticizing you. I truly feel bad for you. The devil is rejoicing also because in the process he has turned a soul away from Jesus.

I would like to stay in touch. I am interested to hear how your interview goes. Maybe you will write another hub about it?

Baileybear profile image

Baileybear Hub Author 18 months ago

Kristeen, interesting, because a christian from these circles read my other ex-christian hub, said they were shocked and said it was sad the devil got me. The book is a personal project by this author, who expects it to be completed in a year. He read my hubs and I answered some questions in the areas he is interested in highlighting. Fear of hell has tortured him for years. I note you believe in hell and also that many christians these days no longer do.

Woman Of Courage profile image

Woman Of Courage 17 months ago

Baileybear, I agree they should have loved you unconditionally. You are a strong person to survive this.

Baileybear profile image

Baileybear Hub Author 17 months ago

thanks, WOC. Unfortunately, my story is very common.

Woman Of Courage profile image

Woman Of Courage 17 months ago

You are welcome. I am a member of a Pentecostal church and I am not experiencing what you been through. The people show genuine love and that's the way it should be. I understand your story is common at some churches, but not all pentecostal churches are like that. If it were, I wouldn't attend the one I am a member of right now. I hope the best for you.

Baileybear profile image

Baileybear Hub Author 17 months ago

WOC - I'm certain the people I knew were sincere and many seemed "loving". It was all very confusing with conflicting messages. Anyway, I was so damaged by the experience that I don't want any of it. It's been shut away for more than a decade as too painful to deal with. I've been deconstructing it and making sense of it - the pain is 95% gone, but these experiences are etched on my psyche - they are part of who/what I am.

Woman Of Courage profile image

Woman Of Courage 17 months ago

I can only imagine how frightening your awful experience must have been. Things that happen to us while growing up does reflect on who we are today. It's a good thing you are writing about it. This is a part of your healing process. All is well.

Baileybear profile image

Baileybear Hub Author 17 months ago

WOC - Yes, writing about painful issues is therapeutic for me and others said how much it helps them.

I've had a few family members accuse me of hanging onto the past and "being unforgiving & bitter" but this is not me at all. I'm not bitter. I don't hate anyone. If I try to pretend it didn't happen, it makes me depressed. I find it better to address it and deconstruct it.

I appreciate that you have not been judgemental in commenting on this hub.

Woman Of Courage profile image

Woman Of Courage 17 months ago

I can't blame you for not trying to pretend it never happened. You are quite welcome. I don't desire to be judgemental on any of my comments. Be encouraged.

Baileybear profile image

Baileybear Hub Author 17 months ago

That's the way I see it too, WOC. I find that confronting these things takes away their power. And if it helps make other people aware, then all the better.

Woman Of Courage profile image

Woman Of Courage 17 months ago

You are right. Everyone needs to be aware.

Lady Guinevere profile image

Lady Guinevere Level 6 Commenter 17 months ago

You and I and some others will continue to bring out the truth.

I have a testimony of how the women of the Catholic church are treats and how one NUN quit and brought her experiences and truth out too. Oh and the Catholic Church don't lke her either and tells others that she lies.

http://cesidian.org/infallibility.html

Ther's more on that site and I have another one too of another NUN. http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/nun3.htm

Lady Guinevere profile image

Lady Guinevere Level 6 Commenter 17 months ago

I added this link to my hub: http://hubpages.com/hub/Women-In-The-Bible-That-He

Baileybear profile image

Baileybear Hub Author 17 months ago

Thanks for posting Lady G, and I've enjoyed having you as part of the heated debate on the other one.

Lady Guinevere profile image

Lady Guinevere Level 6 Commenter 17 months ago

You are very welcome haha

randslam profile image

randslam Level 4 Commenter 17 months ago

Thanks for the straight forward description of your experience with organizational religion. My story reads much the same as yours, but in the realm of sabbatarian/old covenant law keepers. My parents joined Herbert W. Armstrong's Worldwide Church of God when I was six years old and for almost thirty years I tried to make my life fit in with the expectations of church doctrines.

It is an impossible chore that can only lead to insanity and I appreciate your candid description and video examples--some of which are too disturbing when one thinks that these are living, breathing and thinking human beings that have been so conditioned to participate in these delusional hoaxes.

I look forward to reading more of your hubs, Baileybear, and I support your good work of removing the wool from the eyes of the sheep who will listen and realize these profiteers for what they are--money-grubbing, greedy charlatans.

Baileybear profile image

Baileybear Hub Author 17 months ago

randslam - thanks for your encouraging comments.

Yes, it is creepy looking from the outside in at how people are caught up in these delusions. It's psychological abuse, in my opinion.

tonymac04 profile image

tonymac04 17 months ago

Bailey - thanks for this interesting and honest Hub. Don't know if you read A.C. Grayling, but came across this quote from one of his essays which I think you will appreciate: "Churchmen are people with avowedly ancient supernatural beliefs who rely on moral casuistry which is 2000 years out of date; it is extraordinary that their views should be given any precedence over those that could be drawn from the richness of thoughtful, educated, open-minded opinion otherwise available in society."

When I read those words this morning I thought of you and of James - guess they to a degree sum up the differences between you and James (and between me and James!). I was also not sure whether to share this with you on this Hub or the Darwin one - it seems appropriate to both!

Anyway I wish you well and support you in your honesty and in bringing some reason to the "religion" debate.

Love and peace

Tony

Baileybear profile image

Baileybear Hub Author 17 months ago

Tonymac - yes, that quote does seem appropriate to both hubs. I read a fascinating book, 'The Atheist's Way' - was explaining how humans have their traditions, including religion/superstitions & how one can let go of all that and make their own meaning, rather than have someone else dictate what one should do/be.

Christina A profile image

Christina A 17 months ago

Sounds like you have gone through an incredible journey Baileybear. I read Tanya Levin's book too and it saddened me greatly. There is such shallowness in pop theology that thrives western Christianity that can end up being abusive, or at the least, give people very flimsy foundations for their lives that don't stand up to reality. That is what struck me most about Tanya. She lived out the formula she had been given, prescribed even, and it just didn't work. I am not sure that is what spirituality is supposed to be about. Thanks for writing about your experiences.

Baileybear profile image

Baileybear Hub Author 17 months ago

Christina - I followed the "formula" too, and it didn't work out. I've been accused by a very aggressive christian on hubpages, claiming that I was never a christian (some christians believe salvation can't be lost).

It's been something I've been studying and writing about over the last few months, as I've been transitioning from agnostic theist to agnostic atheist. I've been finding out some shocking things - that many christians consider atheists/humanists to be evil/satanists - totally misaligned.

Christina A profile image

Christina A 17 months ago

sorry to hear you have been attacked in that way, though I am not surprised. There are some very aggressive "Christians" out there. I would be interested to read about how you have transitioned from Christian to agnostic theist to agnostic atheist. That must have been an interesting progression to make. I describe myself as a Christian (in that I am trying to work out what it actually means to follow Jesus), but I am rethinking many things, and no longer accept the beliefs I have been taught without question. I have long left fundamentalism behind! Looking forward to more of your hubs...

Baileybear profile image

Baileybear Hub Author 17 months ago

Christina - I can see in your hubs you are not rigid & intolerance like many christians. I have written a number of hubs exploring this theme, as I've been looking at evolution again etc. My first hub on this theme was 'ex-christian - from believer to skeptic' - it is my most-read hub (clearly, a hot topic). I have a few on evolution, one on what I though of the religious forums and the 'never had a boyfriend' & 'depression' ones are partly about this too.

Christina A profile image

Christina A 17 months ago

Thanks Baileybear. I have started reading your "believer to skeptic" hub...

Baileybear profile image

Baileybear Hub Author 17 months ago

thanks, Christina. That one was written before this one.

Highvoltagewriter profile image

Highvoltagewriter Level 6 Commenter 17 months ago

Great hub, and it is sad that many Christines churches mess up kids lives. It is hard to find reall Christines in this world and yet I found a lot of other religions also have double standards. Here is the frist hub in series of three I wrote about my eperience with Christianity and how it turned be down a dark path that took me years to escape..http://hubpages.com/hub/From-Satanist-To-Salvation I hope it helps you in some small way...

Baileybear profile image

Baileybear Hub Author 17 months ago

Highvoltage - what is so confusing is that there are so many christians that say they are 'real' christians, and many people that go to pentecostal churches are very nice.

Christians fight amongst themselves over who has the 'true' revelation. And then all the other religions think they have 'The Truth' too. They can't all be right.

I checked out your hub. You said you had a strong imagination, prone to seeing things not there. I'm not surprised you've had a fascination with the supernatural

Titen-Sxull profile image

Titen-Sxull Level 4 Commenter 17 months ago

This is an awesome hub. I was nodding the whole way through as I went through so much of the same. I too was raised Pentecostal and by age 16 was speaking tongues. Especially chilling is the crying out to God and receiving no answer. I tell Christians that all the time and they act as if I just wasn't listening hard enough or as if I'm an atheist only because I'm angry that God didn't answer.

I remember being sixteen or seventeen waking up in cold sweats. I would have nightmares that I was left behind in the rapture, my parents and my little sisters taken away from me before my very eyes and me left to survive the tribulation and probably end up in Hell. That fear persisted even after I stopped calling myself a Christian.

I can still speak in tongues as well, even though I'm now an atheist.

Absolutely awesome hub, stirred up a lot of emotions for me. As saddened as I am that so many others are being indoctrinated into this its also good to know there are more and more people who have escaped successfully.

Baileybear profile image

Baileybear Hub Author 17 months ago

Thanks Titen. It's only been in the last few months that I've had the courage to write what I really think about all this, that I've carried for years. My family aren't too happy about it, but why should I hide who I am because of fear of their disapproval?

Lady Guinevere profile image

Lady Guinevere Level 6 Commenter 16 months ago

I have come to the understanding that those who claim they are the "real Christians" are part of a cult.

In my hub about What Are Cults there is a list of characteristics that they conform too.

Baileybear profile image

Baileybear Hub Author 16 months ago

Lady G - all the different christian sects claiming they are the 'true' christians is no different from all the other religions claiming they are the 'true' religion (interesting that they all have common roots).

Lady Guinevere profile image

Lady Guinevere Level 6 Commenter 16 months ago

Yes, but it is interesting why the choose to divide themselves when they are so much alike.

Baileybear profile image

Baileybear Hub Author 16 months ago

Yes, Lady G, so true. I've just published a hub addressing this:

http://hubpages.com/hub/Evolution-of-Christianity-

Stump Parrish profile image

Stump Parrish Level 2 Commenter 16 months ago

I saw a documentary not long ago titled "Jesus Camp" that dealt with the evangelical movement here in America. A lot of what you discussed was in this video. The most disturbing thing to me was the 12 and 13 year olds who thought the were soldiers in god's army. They stated they expected to die in battle fighting for god.

One of the saddest sights was a little 5 year old girl trying desperately to talk in tongues and being upset that she was letting god and her parents down with her inability.

Baileybear profile image

Baileybear Hub Author 16 months ago

Stump - I watched several minutes of Jesus Camp on U-Tube, and that was enough to bring back bad memories. I've just finished reading 2 very disturbing biographies about child abuse in religious cults, which I hope to write a hub about soon

Stump Parrish profile image

Stump Parrish Level 2 Commenter 16 months ago

I've got some personal experience with child abuse but it wasn't in a church or cult. I know how devastating those memories can be when they finally resurface. It was actually the reason I tried the church in the first place. It wasn't discussed back then in the south. Basically told to be quiet and live with it, amen.

Baileybear profile image

Baileybear Hub Author 16 months ago

Stump - I went to church from around 7-8 years old. I didn't acquire a healthy attitude towards sexuality from my indoctrination. I wrote about this in my hub Never Had a Boyfriend.

Churches attempt to 'help' people they are ill-equipped to. There was a murder-suicide in my parent's congregation, and then a double-murder & sex crime. With the later, a psychopath murdered then raped his neighbour & wife. The church had been trying to get their children back off social services.

PrayzN GOD profile image

PrayzN GOD 11 months ago

Hi Baileybear, I don't know if you are still checking this, but I just wanted to say how brave you are to talk about the things that go on in mega churches, but not only them, the same sort of things go on in small churches as well, basically in any organization where there is a leader and some followers. BUT what I am really wanting to tell you is, the CHURCH has nothing to do with your RELATIONSHIP with GOD. Don't be Athiest or say God doesn't exist because of how people treated you at that church. Churches were created for people of the Chrstian faith, or the religion, could join together and worship God. The leaders of the church and other members are only there, at least are supposed to be there, for moral support and to help teach people that may not know or may not understand what it is or how to go about having a relationship with God. I still learn everyday about how to be a better Christian because I have had and still have bad experiences with other Christians who are obsessed with following rules of a certain church or doing things the "right way" etc. At the end of the day, it all comes down to having a close, intimate relationship with God, not the church and its followers, but God. The one who created us and blesses us everyday. Please let me know if you would like to talk further. I really like helping people especially on this topic, so they and myself too can better understand that its not the church or the religion we need to worry about but it's our relationship with God. Thanks and God bless

Baileybear profile image

Baileybear Hub Author 11 months ago

PG - yes, they all say it's a relationship with God, and that's what I thought I had, but really it was one way - God never responded to me.

PrayzN GOD profile image

PrayzN GOD 11 months ago

There is a God Baileybear. How else would you explain miracles, such as women having several children after being told they would never be able to become pregnant, or a 2 year old that was born to an atheist family and never being taught about God or heaven and hell and yet draws pictures of it and tells her family that God told her to draw them... These examples and millions more, like waking up and breathing everyday, are just a touch of what God is capable of and proof that he is real. I'm not judging you like you have said many other so called Christians have done to you, I simply sharing with you what God has put on my heart to say. I actually had two other friends who were athiest for the same reasons you are Baileybear, but I helped draw them back to the love and faith for God. I didn't push it down their throats or shove it in their faces, I simply lived a Christian life and by my example they began asking questions and eventualy began going with me to church and other Christian events and became Christians again. I have many friends who are gay and lesbian, but I don't judge them for that because I know that is Gods job, not mine. I'm only here to serve him and help lead others to serve him as well. I'm sorry about what happened to you and that happens to a lot of people, but YOU just need to focus on exactly what it is that you are asking God for. You will be surprised what things will happen once you begin to obey God and just listen, and pray to him from your heart. I understand your hurt because you are human like everyone else in the world, you just need to get the right info and about God and be around the right type of Christian people who don't obsess over churches and the religion but they focus on God and his blessings, as well as not focusing on what others may say about them, just pray for them and you will soon realize how much of God will do for you Baileybear. He is so awesome you just have to open your heart and soul and let him in. Thanks again and God bless

Baileybear profile image

Baileybear Hub Author 11 months ago

PraysNGod - sorry I missed this comment.

I think it is the natural tendency for humans to look for something outside themselves, to try and create meaning for themselves. Many people look for this in religion/spirituality.

If I had been born in the middle east or asia, I would have more than likely been brought up muslim or hindu etc.

I don't see pregnancy as something god controls. I've known many christians that used IVF to get pregnant. Does that mean they lacked faith in god?

I spent nearly 2 decades praying to god & living my life for god - there was no more response from god than having an invisible friend.

I cannot see how the god of the bible is a god of love. Many people have rejected their belief after reading the bible. They found the god in there to be like Hitler.

If there is a god, I'd be very disappointed if it were the god in the bible, who seems to have a fetish for foreskins and murder.

PrayzN GOD profile image

PrayzN GOD 11 months ago

Again you keep bringing the aspect of religion into what I have said and that's not what I am aiming at. I see you didn't even talk about my truth about the child being born into the athiest family and talking about heaven, hell, and God telling her to draw the picture and having never been taught about God. It's human nature because we have a spirit that is guided by God and may become corrupted by Satan who doesn't want anyone to reach out or know about God. Every topic i touched on you try and twist and turn it to make yourself feel better about hating God. IVF doesn't mean they lacked faith, becuase they could've stil not gotten pregnant. God controls everything he created. AND you are only focusing on what God did that man look at as bad when God was ridding the earth of negativity and those who were blasphamus. If God didn't love us He wouldn't have sent His son Jesus to die for us on the cross. You know what I have nothing else to say, because all you are going to do is pick all the things that look wrong about God and continue to lead yourself into the arms of trouble. GOODNIGHT and GOD BLESS

Baileybear profile image

Baileybear Hub Author 11 months ago

PrazN God - I tried to answer your questions, but clearly my answers don't suit you. It is pointless for me to respond.

Lisa Mae DeMasi profile image

Lisa Mae DeMasi 10 months ago

Wow. I just found you and read this article. I found God - had a vision of Jesus - a number of years ago. After that, I sought out a worshipping body and joined a Southern Baptist church. (check out my hub - With Light Comes Darkness). I could not get over the church members obsession with Satan. I had many experiences and finally left the southern baptist church for a nondemonitional one. At any rate, I was so glad to see your hub. It really resonated with me!!!

Baileybear profile image

Baileybear Hub Author 10 months ago

Lisa - Several believers on HP either don't go to church or say they are non-denominational. Yep, many are obsessed with Satan.

Laura 7 months ago

I had a similar experience in the Jesus Army. Thanks for sharing.

Sturgeonl profile image

Sturgeonl Level 4 Commenter 3 months ago

People and organizations are never perfect. Let's just hope that individuals have the strength to keep God first, and not loose faith because of the actions of others. If people look to the actions of others, as a condition for seeking their own relationship with God,they will always be disappointed...and will definitely loose their faith and way.

Joseph 7 weeks ago

I don't mean to sound rude, but using the excuse that many Christians have different interpretation of scripture to be one of the reasons in not believing in Christ. The man Jesus did exist. Even True honest non believers have achnoweldge the existence of such a man. The writings of Flavius Josephus are outside biblical source of the existence of Christ. Now the question should be was Jesus who he claim to be? Was Jesus resurrected, history points to yes. Another question you should ask yourself did everything come from nothing. Can nothing create life, can nothing create matter? No matter how billions and billions of years you give nothing, the result will also be nothing. This universe is not eternal so it's logical that it had a beginning. Something or someone eternal had to get this universe started because "nothing" cannot create. Scripture has proven itself prophetically, scientifically and through artifacts. I agree with you the Pentecostals doctrine is error. Check the AoG and Pentecostal Charasmatic movement it's new. Man is fallible, Scripture the original written in Hebrew and Greek inspired by God who used men to bring it is infallible. By the way I came out the Pentecostal movement AOG in Modesto ca Calvary temple worship center. It does teach error. Hope God opens your heart, because I do understand you don't have the ability to do so.

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