Ex-Christian - from Believer to Skeptic
69Why I left the Church
The initial reasons were hurt and disillusionment. I experienced burnout, anxiety and depression at university. I didn't receive a diagnosis until more than three years later. I didn't understand what was happening to me - it was a very scary and lonely experience.
Christians withdrew from me. Many of them said I was a "bad christian." I wanted my friends and family to love me, to support me. Instead, I got preaching: "Resist the devil!" "Read your bible more!" I found the hypocrisy and judgemental attitude very hurtful.
I continued to try to go to church, but I found it too upsetting. I got bailed up and asked, "Don't you love the lord anymore?" "You need deliverance (exorcism)!" If I admitted I wanted to die, I was told I would go straight to hell.
When I took my boyfriend to church, he was interrogated to see if he was a 'real' christian. "Are you saved?" "Do you speak in tongues?" "Have you been baptised in the holy spirit?" A christian wrote me a letter instructing me to break up with my boyfriend - she had decided he wasn't a christian after meeting him for a few minutes.
I ditched the friend and married my boyfriend, my best friend. Of course, it was wrongly concluded that he took me away from God. We've been married for over 14 years now. He's stuck by me through years of health problems.
I tried different churches, but it didn't make much difference. In the end, I gave up on going to church - it was too painful. I still believed God existed, but I didn't think he cared much for me - I didn't feel close to God - I felt he had abandoned me.
my blog, godconfusion
Living without the Church
I was eventually diagnosed with clinical depression and received treatment for it. Able to make more sense of it, I felt angered that christians had told me I'd been possessed by a demonic spirit.
My health continued to decline however, which affected my quality of life and earning capacity. I had a pain disorder and thyroid disorder, and some extremely traumatic medical problems - more pain than most people would ever experience, psychologically and physically.
We had some big disappointments in life, like having to sell our house, because we couldn't afford mortgage payments without my income. Our beloved pet dog died from epilepsy the same year a school friend died from the same condition. Career failures. Family that disowned us. Our young son screamed frequently - blood-curdling screams - the superstitious might think he was possessed.
We survived, and grew stronger, wiser.
What was frustrating was that I couldn't be honest with people close to me. If I expressed my opinion, I was told it was "disturbing". I received occasional preaching emails: "Come back to Jesus before it's too late!"
I was told that the reason for all the crap in my life was because I was like the prodigal son that turned my back on God. If I were to come back to God, my life would be better. Actually, I hadn't turned my back on God. I felt God had turned his back on me, along with his followers.
Sometimes christians asked me why I didn't go to church anymore but few bothered to listen and try to understand. One even asked if their romantic rejection of me was the reason, which stunned me. It was too upsetting to try and tell people my story; most christians didn't "get it" anyway and insisted I try their church.
Finding My Own Answers
I decided to try and figure about why my son had screaming fits and obnoxious behaviour. I did an elimination diet to see if we had any food sensitivities. To my astonishment, I figured out that my son and I were both very food sensitive. The screaming in my son was from certain food preservatives.
We found that some chemicals, even naturally occuring ones mess with our brains and affect our mood and behaviour. I can get a depressed mood for hours just from eating a piece of fruit high in salicylates. We literally get drugged by food chemicals.
I was diagnosed celiac (an autoimmune condition where the body reacts to gluten) and with dietary changes, the change in my health was incredible - no more bone pain, brain fog, thyroid problems and good control of my depressive disorder. Best of all, I was able to think clearly again. I believe the symptoms of celiac disease started when I was still in high school, and the burnout was because my immune system was in a state of crisis.
In addition, my son and I were diagnosed with Asperger's Syndrome, which is on the autistic spectrum. We see the world differently from other people. The difficult experiences in my life made sense - I wasn't "cursed" like I'd been told. I had been struggling with an invisible disability along with an undiagnosed autoimmune disorder.
I figured all this out without prayer. God didn't seem to answer my prayers anyway, so I had given up praying. I was now feeling well, and wanted to go back to part-time employment. We got massive improvements with my son with diet, but there were still some issues.
I still had unresolved issues about God. God didn't heal me; I figured it out for myself. Did that mean God didn't care about me, or did God not exist?
I contacted the more open-minded christians from my university days. I asked them hard questions. They tried their best to answer. But ultimately, I didn't find their answers satisfying. Some of the answers they gave didn't make any sense to me, and their belief seemed to be based on subjective experiences more than anything.
They believed sickness like dying from cancer is to make people turn to God. They weren't sure in my case if I would be going to hell or not. Basically it ended up going round and round in circles, with both sides frustrated. I found it strange that intelligent people threw away their rationality when it came to God.
Christian cliches like "praise the lord!" and "hate the sin; love the sinner," grated me. I didn't consider myself a christian anymore and I was much happier out of the church than in it.
I considered myself agnostic - meaning I wasn't sure if God existed, and wasn't certain God didn't exist either. Einstein and Darwin were agnostic too - there is no concrete evidence for the existence of God. I was surprised to learn that there is no independent historical evidence that Jesus existed.
Critical Thinking
I chose to go to university to study science, much to my mother's disappointment: she'd wanted me to go to bible college and marry a pastor.
I'd been sold the intelligent design concept by creationists, so there was a conflict with what I learnt in science and what I'd been indoctrinated with. In biochemistry, I was fascinated with the complexity of the makeup of biological chemicals, and accepted that because it was complex, "God must have designed it."
In geology, I learnt about plate tectonics, the rock cycle, fossil records and an ancient Earth. This conflicted with the young Earth presented in the bible - some christians attempted to get around this problem by by suggesting that the days in the bible were really an age - but the order of creation still didn't match science.
In genetics, I learnt about genetic mutations and evolution. Again christians would get around evolution by saying God made it happen, or God created original limited species which then underwent micro-evolution. Christians can't offer reasonable explanations for why hundreds of species of marsupials are concentrated in Australia.
Regardless, I was fascinated with science, because I enjoy finding out how our universe works. Many Christians mistake science for a religion that opposes them and dismiss science as "only a theory". They fail to understand that the "theory" of science is backed up by a huge body of physical evidence, and that scientific theories are continually refined as more knowledge is gained.
A recent worldwide genetic study traces the origins of humans migrating from Africa. This also fits what is known in geology about the movement of the continents and fossil records. This also contradicts the story of Adam and Eve in the bible.
I read testimonies of ex-christians. Many had been disowned by their family and friends when they deconverted. Many had become atheists after reading the bible properly. I've always felt uncomfortable with a lot of stuff in the Bible - the violence, God killing people, God telling people to kill people and unfair treatment of women and homophobia. I imagine that a young person raised in a christian home and realising they are gay must be the most awful thing.
I found it hard to ignore the many people spiritually and sexually abused in the church, and not just the catholic church. I couldn't help but notice that christians in general were very intolerant of other religions, and even other christians, if they belonged to another denomination. My family's church even split in half - it sounded like the egos of the leaders were a big factor.
I've been examining the history of christianity. Fundamental christianity relies on the belief that the bible is "inerrant because inspired by God". There are many inconsistencies and even direct contradictions in the bible. If God inspired the bible, why are there many unscientific beliefs, such as a flat Earth and light and day created before the Sun?
The story of Noah's Ark is illogical, and if this story is fiction, are other parts of the bible fiction too? Some christians now say not to take the bible so literally, but nearly every christian I know takes the bible literally, or at least the parts they've cherry-picked.
They've conveniently ignored the uncomfortable parts of the bible, like how the power-obsessed God in the old testament sounds a lot like Hilter, who claimed to be christian - slaughtering people to save his chosen race. Although I like Jesus, I don't like the God of the old testament at all - this God condoned animal abuse, human sacrifice, murder and unfair treatment of women and homosexuals. Christians tend to focus on the new testament, but if Jesus and God are meant to be one, then they can't gloss over the old testament God.
Verses in the bible get twisted and are open to interpretation. I don't see a bible inspired by God. I see flawed writings by humans of a given time in history. God has good and bad human characteristics. The christian church has fragmented into thousands of denominations/sects and even cults because of disagreements about theology. The ku klux klan racist terrorists and the jehovah witnesses were some of these branches. Islam shares common roots with christianity. Rather than God creating humans in his image; humans have created God in their image. Which sect/denomination/religion is right?
There is no archeological evidence that Jesus even existed. The four books of the gospel were written from hearsay many decades after Jesus was supposed to have lived - we all know what happens in the game of chinese whispers. There is no independent writing of that time about Jesus. Monarchies and governments adopted christianity years ago because it was effective in having power over people. I have read that christianity arose from pagan beliefs.
I've been researching the history of christianity. Early christianity was based on Greek & Egyption mythology. Despite the bible condeming astrology, the bible reads as an astrological allegory of the passage of the sun through the zodiac constellations (because they believed back then that the Sun moved, not the Earth). So, really it is about sun worship & astrology. By losing the knowledge of astrology, believers in the bible take it literally, rather than realising it is originates from mythology.
The bible and the "feeling in their heart" (a subjective experience) is what christians rely on as "proof". It was thought long ago that the thoughts and feelings originate in the heart, not the brain. Christians spout off their subjective experiences and variable interpretations of the bible as "fact." So do other religions like Jehovah witnesses. Beliefs are a powerful force - people are not willing to consider that their core beliefs might be wrong. Religious beliefs can be dangerous - 9/11 is an example of that.
Christians have told me that I need to return to God - I've "backslidden". If I tell them I'm an ex-christian, they tell me that is not possible - I must have never been 'saved' in the first place because 'true' christians would never leave the 'flock'. I'd believed I was filled with the Holy Spirit and that Jesus saved me. If there is any truth to the "no such thing as an ex-christian" statement, then how can anyone really be sure they are saved?
I've thought about some of my "religious" experiences. I recall a time when I was lying on the bed half awake and I was paralysed for a few minutes and felt like a cat was walking on my back. At the time, some christians were telling me my house had demonic spirits in it. I now know that there is a phenomenon called sleep paralysis where a person can be half-asleep, but partially conscious, and can hallucinate. My "answered prayers" could just as easily be attributed to luck.
My experiences of "being filled with the spirit" were emotional and subjective. There is a mob mentality in crowds and the music that is played during church services evokes an hypnotic state. I know from personal experience that the emotions and mental state can be altered by drugs (or even foods for me).
I recall some people that "prophesised" for me back when I was a christian - like when they said I had the spirit of anorexia when I had food poisoning. The stuff they said was way off, embarrassing and I felt uncomfortable, but I didn't correct them or discuss it with anyone and continued with my belief. The materialism in some of the churches seems hypocritical to me - funny how they like to dismiss the old testament except the bit about tithing - yes, I gave 10% of my income to the church at one stage.
As for looking at nature to see God's existence - things we class as beautiful, like rainbows and sunsets are physical phenonema that are now understood by science - light diffraction through dust or rain-drops. It is the humans that make the subjective judgement about beauty or ugliness; good and bad. It is humans that want to believe their lives have a greater purpose, hence look to religion. I think it is humans that have come up with the concept of God.
Atheists and Christians
Atheists get accused of being hating God and being angry at God. This is illogical, because how can athiests be angry or hate at something they don't believe in? Many atheists know the bible better than christians - many used to be christians at one time. They get irritated and frustrated with christians that refuse to see logic. I was angry at God for a time - when I believed in God, and felt God had let me down. But I'm not angry with God now. I don't believe in God of the bible anymore. I can't say for sure that a god or higher being doesn't exist.
Christians preach about burning in hell. It's the common theme when someone says they don't believe - what happens after you die - heaven or hell. So much of christianity exploits fear, guilt and shame. I had no self-esteem when I was a christian. I was a martyr that let people treat me badly.
Many christians are very pushy about their beliefs - after all they are told to "spread the word". It goes something like this: "God made you and loves you. He gave you free will. Accept Jesus into your heart, and you will have eternal life when you die (and if you don't, then you burn in hell for all eternity). Sounds like a forced choice.
Historically, religion was used politically - to control people. It is still used to control people's minds. "Religion is the opiate of the masses." (Marx - paraphrase).
If you must give me a label, I'd consider myself agnostic atheist - I don't believe in God, but I'm not absolutely sure there is no God. I think non-theist would be a better label than atheist ie non-belief in God rather than being against God.
I believe this life is the only one I've got. It doesn't make me feel worthless - knowing I have an expiry date motivates me to make the most of life. If I'm wrong and there is a hell, I don't fear it.
I don't hate christians. I think many of them are ignorant and annoying,but there are some that I hold in high regard. These tend to be the open-minded ones and the kind ones that refrain from ramming their religious views down other people's throats.
The ones that can't make any decision for themselves, regurgitate cliches and verses without understanding what they mean, leap around with fake joy, are intolerant of other people's views and and impose their beliefs on others are the most irritating and off-putting.
The dangerous ones are the bigots - like the "christian" on the forums that was judgemental about a young man's homosexual lifestyle prior to his suicide after a hate crime was committed against him. There are some christians on the religious forums that make hate comments, and then accuse others of hating them.
I believe people seek religion in an attempt to give their lives meaning. The bible doesn't really give answers - just creates more questions. Christianity fails to provide satisfactory answers about issues like birth defects, natural disasters, amputees not being healed. The usual pat "explanations" are "sin", "God did it," "the devil did it" ignoring any rational explanations.
Contrary to what many christians think, atheists don't lack purpose in life or lack values. I consider myself much more tolerant of people of different backgrounds than I was when I was a christian. I have responsibilities and share good values with my husband.
It has been a difficult process reframing my beliefs -it was a process over many years. My experience of christianity was psychologically damaging. I feel more freedom the more I let what I was indoctrinated with go.
I am expecting some backlash for writing this, particularly from the people that think they know me. I thought it was time to write what I really think, regardless of any disapproval. This has been my journey.
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Addiction
'Religion isn't the opiate of the masses; it's the placebo of the masses.' - Dr Gregory House
Hitting Nerves
I wrote this hub less than two weeks ago, and it has been my fastest read hub. It has shot to first place as my hub with the most view and comments.
I've clearly hit some nerves, judging from all the polarised views and arguments between people leaving comments. I've deleted at least 3 dozen posts because they were blantant attacks on each other (which meant unfortunately, often something worthwhile in the comment was deleted also).
I put this here where family and christians that knew me when I was younger can see - a bit like "coming out". I waited for the sh!t to hit the fan. It did - I was accused of having "stinking thinking", being bitter, unforgiving, etc etc. I can't be bothered arguing with those that are so caught up in their delusion that they cannot see why I wrote this (not out of bitterness, I am 90% over the hurt and I've never been more clear-thinking since sorting out my health problems - sans god).
Some christians made intially attempts to understand. They asked questions - so many questions that I felt interrogated. In the end, answering questions was pointless, as it still came back to "It's so sad that satan got me" or "Why are you so bitter and blaming christians?" It was still my choice, my fault, my failing.
I don't mind if you have different views - keep in mind it will be pointless trying to convert me. Attacks are not welcome - of me or anyone else. Please keep comments respectful. Thanks for reading.
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God did not desert you in your time of need, your church and your "Christian" friends did. God doesn't promise that as believers our lives will be without conflict and troubles. It makes me sad to think that you are rejecting God, but He does allow us to make our own choices in life. Our life here on earth is just a little blip in time. Eternity is forever.
(It makes me sad to think that you are rejecting God)
Kristeen,
Have you considered that what you said above in actuality is this: It makes me sad to think you are rejecting "my beliefs (me)".
That is a passive-aggressive statement. It's selfishishness, as it is not really concerned with the other person but with how rejection affects onesself.
Truth is truth no matter what we believe! I have found that even with all the rederick of false churches and well meaning people that there is truth! Keep seeking it!
Jesus changed this world with his life, death and resurrection, Try focusing on him!
AKA Winston - I plan to read more about the history of religion etc. Thanks for your support.
Kristeen - it takes courage to thoroughly examine a belief system that one is in conflict with and finally reject it. "Eternity is forever" - is that to remind me of hell?
Captain Jimmy - people are entitled to their own beliefs. From my observations religions are based on subjective "truth" and ignore scientific facts
Here, Here!. I still follow Jesus, but not a church and their false doctrines whom go mostly with Paul. I too have a hub that I wrote on how to ask questions and seek answers. Some "facts" the Bible brings about are not true to scientific FACTS. Most of the things in that Bible already occured if you sit and read it story by story and not take it verse by verse. Revelations already occured in the time Mount Vesuvius exploded and buried all those people. The story of Lot and his wife turning into a pillar of salt was about that time and anyway.....you can read my hub The Long And Winding Road and it has places to go to for knowledge.
I love your testimony. Keep on Hubbing!
Baileybear,
I was reared in a strict Nazarene home, which is a Prostestant evangelical upbringing. I understand the horrors of being subjected to religious abuse at a young age. So I feel I know these people well and can speak with some conviction about their motives.
You ask about Kristeen's comment: Eternity is forever. I can tell you from my experience that it damn well IS a veiled threat of hellfire (again the passive-aggressive method that is so favored by Christians to make their points).
Captain Jimmy talks about truth without realizing that ALL truth is subjective, i.e., truth is only someone's opinion.
I'm glad you escaped the trap of Christian belief. I know how difficult a task that is to accomplish.
Lady G - thanks for reading. I agree that people present their bible and doctrines as "facts" - which is misleading as well as arrogant.
Winston - I had too much material here, so carried some over to write another hub about this topic at some stage. I've been hanging out in the religious forums. The christians were passive-aggressive and spouted their doctrine; the atheists (many formerly in religion) were logical; the christians accused the atheists of being haters; thankfully with the internet, people like me don't feel so alone escaping the traps of religion
I don't go to the forums anymore because of the spewing forth of misleading and EGO maniacs. I call myself a "Christian" because I follow Jesus Christ. I am not a "Churchian" who relies on someone elses doctrine and dogma. That iritates many so called christians. Their Bibles have also been changed to be a more controlling factor instead of the love that is supposed to be spread. They just can't comprehend that unconditional love. When you tell them or show them what the truth is, boy you get flamed. I was tarred, feathered and flamed in those forums and will just not subject myself to that anymore.
Lady G - I found hanging out there for several days confirmed what I had already observed - that most people blindly defend their beliefs without respect for other points of view. I plan to write a hub about my observations. I doubt I will doubt to continue to contribute to any of these forums, because they are a frustrating round-a-bout going no-where. Good on the people that persist in asking questions and pointing out the lack of logic etc. I was sent some personal messages about "hell is eternity" - of course, they can't see their attitudes are not love at all
Very entertaining to read, and lots of good points. I'm just 21 and been questioning religion since I can remember. Not that I ever really needed to, since my parents aren't religious either, so unlike you I've had no pressure. All that makes this more interesting to read since your background is so different from mine, and it's always good to hear things from a different perspective.
thanks for commenting spookyfox - you are very fortunate that you are given the space to make up your mind for yourself. My husband had splatterings of religion, but it wasn't shoved down his throat. Makes so much difference
Baileybear,
Great hub. Like you, I was raised by devout Pentacostal parents. My mother just doesn't understand why I did not become a minister. I tried to make her see, to no avail, that religion is absurd.
And most of these "Christians" in the forums here, are EXTREMELY delusional. I have been subjected to all kinds of slander, character assisinations, and ridicule, just because I refuse to accept nonsense as sense.
getitrite - you were one of the few voices of reason on the forums. The christians on the forums are VERY aggressive. I've been researching the history of christianity - I didn't know until know previously that the ku klux klan were a result of fragmentation & they consider themselves christians
I Corinthians 13
Love is patient; love is kind
and envies no one.
Love is never boastful, nor conceited, nor rude;
never selfish, not quick to take offense.
There is nothing love cannot face;
there is no limit to its faith,
its hope, and endurance.
In a word, there are three things
that last forever: faith, hope, and love;
but the greatest of them all is love
sister; God did not neglect you. The Bible always recorded that Jesus Christ seldom isolates himself and pray. Sometimes He prays to the point of sweating out Blood. But the Bible never recorded what He said in His prayers until John 17; which records Jesus Christ saying "Father! Make them one as You and I are one". Did you know why He made such a prayer? He knew it would be very difficult in the later days (when the love of many shall wax cold and even fathers would kill their sons for selfishness) there would be no love, but one thing he said is that he that endureth till the end shall be saved. Even Jesus Christ was hated with great repugnance, he was despised, abused, spit on, given vinegar when he needed water and His own people traded Him for a notorious criminal (Can you Imagine that?) and so in some times, we should also expect that, But God has assured us that He will always be with us. Did you really give him that listening ear? You may think you were self-inspired to think of the causes of your emotional or psychological problem, right? (I hope I am not also sounding aggressive here). It pains me so much to see and know how christians treat their fellow christians. Jesus Christ never forced anyone to accept the Gospel and He never insulted anyone just because they are sinners. Logically if anyone comes to me to accept Jesus Christ as my personal lord and savior and he begins to tell me of hell fire and judgement day, then I will see that God as a ruthless God, a God who just wants to take advantage of our weaknesses, but if love is been portrayed and shared, then my attention would be fully got. I am sorry to know your experience and I really understand what you went through but I suggest you give it a second thought. All the things you passed through are human-manifestations, God is always there, there are lots of such testimonies and when you hear the endings of such testimonies of people who stayed to the end, they get reasons to stand firm in the faith. If you still doubt God, then what can you say about all the miracles happening in Christian conferences, the healings and the manifestations of the sons of God. Or should we attribute them to magic or the Devil? If we so much believe in the power of the Devil, then why not God? After all who gave him-the devil such powers? If we also believe its magic, there it is a clear evidence that there is a force or world beyond ours which is very much functional. A world or force we cannot see, a world or force operating beyond natural laws and principles. Such world should have a ruler and such force should have a source. Where is that source coming from? Some attribute natural laws to mother nature- who is mother nature? We still acknowledge a force greater than ours but instead of naming it God, we apply a change of name called mother nature. And if you really do not believe in magic, then you can as well search the internet and see for yourself (though I do not encourage it); and not only the internet but a lot of proofs that they really do exist. And if you consider the manifestations of the sons of God as absolute nonsense, then why not go physically to one of the crusades or conferences and see God's power manifested unto man (Just as Christ has said, greater works shall we do). See, the Bible is real, God is real and Jesus Christ is very real. The Holy spirit is very real in us but He operates as the function of our faith. Just as some christians cannot perform such miracles or speak in tongues does not mean they are not christians or they do not have the spirit in them. No! As we grow in the faith, we get closer to Him and We experience His power in our lives as real as we could ever imagine. I for one has never spoken in tongues before, but I go to Christian gatherings where they do and they speak prophesies which came true. I have received inspirations on warnings one time or the other in my life in which after praying you see God's work changing situations. Of course your church did not help you at all, so far as I know the Bible scripture, that is not a church. It is just a gathering, where people come to tell God how righteous they are and go. If you know the Bible well, you'll remember the story of the two who were praying on the mountain. The arrogant pharisee was telling God how he has been giving his tithes, offerings and has been doing great works, while the other presented himself as humble as possible, as ordinary and plain as possible and what happened? Of course God was interested in the second and not the first- tagging him as a hypocrite. This is why Paul has made emphasis on not following the later days doctrines but to be "christ-like" hence the name Christians. So make Christ your role model and see what he is going to do in your life.
About God of the old testament? whew...! God is God and He is holy. He hates sin and cannot stand it. And to tell you how much He hates it, its only remission is the shedding of blood-or without it, there would not be remission of sin. Hence the animal sacrifices in the old testaments. There are a lot of offerings and sacrifices. That is why the final sacrifice was to send His sone Jesus Christ to cleanse us from all unrighteousness, once and for all. And I also somewhat agree with you that women were placed under much subjectivity in the old testament. After the fall of man in which he complained to God that "It was the woman God gave him who led him to eat the fruit" God placed a punishment on her and one of it is her submissiveness to the man. This was too applied in the tradition of the Jews. Mind you it was just a tradition they jews had as of then and not necessarily ordinations from God. The main thing which makes women more subjective is the fact that they had more sacrifices to make because of their physiological make up such as menstrual circles and all that. But any other thing is due to the Jewish traditions. Remember there were as well had powerful women of God too- prophetess Deborah for instance who lead Israel, Esther; even on the bad side- Jezebel who caused havoc lots of havoc and exhibited extreme dominance. So women were really not subjected as the case seem here and if they really did, it was due to the jewish traditions/mentality and not really ordinances from God. What about the wars? Yes, God, like I said earlier is a holy God and He made some promises to His chosen ones for them to reach the promised land and He is going to ensure they reach there, regardless of oppositions from other humans. Remember He created us, and just as with the case of the potter and the clay pot, the potter can discard one of the pots if it becomes useless or for better language- not useful. HE was the God of War and when the opposition resist, He sends His children for war and they conquer. Mind you most of these wars come with warning. If you read the story of the egyptian pharoah, he had much more chances and opportunities than usual. He received some signs time and time again up to the extent his first born was killed, but he refused. Some of the nations who came to attack the children of Israel had heard of their story and their great God but what happened? they still went to attack, isn't it? Look at the middle east now. Can you estimate the % of Israel's land mass to the other neighboring arabian countries? But yet, they have not been eliminated. Have you thought over it? Do you think its because they (Israel) have the power or technology to withstand such a massive hostile neighboring threats on regular basis? There is something more than the ordinary happening here... But when Jesus christ came, he said He did not come to annul the law but to amend it, and just as moses said "an eye for an eye" Jesus christ said, forgive your enemies- in fact if he slaps yo
Hi Baileybear,
Just wanted to tell you that I have much respect for people like you.
Hang in there and be strong.
There is no such thing as "majority rule". There is only reason. If only the rest of the world could understand that.
Good luck!
D.virtual - whoa, that's a big comment; not quite sure what main point is, so will respond to to some points raised: yes, it is disgusting how many christians treat other people; I suffered for nearly 20 years, so nope, wasn't hasty about my concluding God wasn't interested; "miracles" are heresay and are frequently scams; unless I'm mistaken aren't the IRA bombings "christian" religion - catholic vs protestant?
Fatfist - thanks for the encouragement
Well its okay, if thats what you have concluded on. But be it protestant, catholic, orthodox, I will still stress out the point that Jesus Christ wants us to be one just like Him and His father and hence all these are just human manifestations. Christianity should be personal but not private. Our Lord and saviour Jesus Christ has shown us the way and path of righteousness and hence any human doctrine is considered null and void if they do not correspond to what He teaches...
Anyway, I wish you all the best and I truly hope you find absolute and real answers in life. (enjoy and cheers!)..
D.Virtual. Jesus did not say go stuff his ideas down others throats. Jesus and Paul are 2 different people who never met each other and have very different views on just about anything.
Here is a good site to research and read lots on and do a search for religion, medicine agriculture and, of course, politics. It will amaze you what history is and what it has shown us or actually what we have done to ourselves way before 7th BC up until now. It is a long read but once you get into it it is hard to stop.
D.Virtual - christians can't help but preach and present their opinions as undisputable "facts" - which I find very off-putting
Lady G - I've been digging into the origins of christianity and been amazed at what I've found eg whole bible is allegory of astrology (and of course, astrology was banned in bible, so they wouldn't work it out). Was political - to control the masses
Yes, Egypt was put on the list too---wonder why? I read someplace that Moses (whp is not listed as anyone in Egytpian history btw) was kicked out for killing a slave owner becasue Moses didn't like how that slave owner was treating the slave. After that somehow he got the ten commandments written on clay tablets--but the kicker is they are just aobut the same as the laws that Egypt has. Egypt is evil. Look at Babylon--it was a very rich city on a very used port. Someone didn't like this and they were probably poor and jealous and that is how Babylon is evil. Babylon was in the Persian Empire and it is a great histoical time as we are and other empires are interesting as well.
Yes, been reading about how the bible is plagarised off previous mythology - egyptian, greek etc. Church condemned science too - like when Galileo worked out the world wasn't flat and the sun/stars don't actually rotate around the sun. All the ideas were based in astrology & mythology - the virgin, water, lamb sacrifice, worship of son (sun), heaven in sky, hell below earth, judgement, numbers 12, 7, 4, 3 as recurring themes...
There's not a scrap of evidence that any key bible characters (including Jesus) actually existed. Seems it was written to control the masses (based on stories of mythology around that that time)
(Jesus and Paul are 2 different people who never met each other and have very different views on just about anything.)
Hooray! Someone who "gets it". Not only were Paul and Jesus different persons, but Paul and all the disciples were different people, and the authors of the 4 gospels were different from all of the above.
And each had his own reasons and teachings.
There is no New Testament version - each book was meant to stand on its own and the lessons don't match up.
Wow, what a great hub. Congratulations on your recovery--you've really been through it. If only more folks were as brave as you!
Religion is just another addiction. You can get addicted to anything that 'rings your bell', and religion does that for a lot of folks (maybe there should be a "christians anonymous"--like AA, except that wouldn't work becaus AA is basically a christian organization). I turned away from the church at an early age, mainly because the only way to believe what I was being fed was either to turn off my brain, which was asking too much (why would a creator not want human beings to use their greatest asset?), or to engage it the heavy duty mental gymnastics needed to deal with the cognitive dissonance, which is a waste of energy.
Hi Bailey:
Wonderful Hub!
Right on the mark all the way thru!
you've done your homework!
Monotheists are obsequious, unlearned followers who, when queried about the history and evolution of their belief in myth, have nothing but opinion and guess upon which to base their religious idiocy.
I deeply respect the fact that you studied all you have with an open mind and have come to the conclusions you have.
I went thru much the same process. 2 1/2 yrs of baptist seminary, bible scholar and prepping for the pulpit when I began studying anthropology and the history of man's religious propensities. My studies since then have taken me on the same road you travel today.
There is a "possibility" of there being a "god thing" but not a probability.
Congrats on your epiphany!
Thanks for becoming a follower.
Qwark
Joyous - yes, religion can be an addiction for many. I guess being indoctrinated so young, my cognitive thinking hadn't developed, and then when I walked away, my mind was clouded over from my illness, so nearly 20 years later, here I am re-examining it all, and rejecting on the basis it is illogical
Qwark - I very much doubt christians know the origins of their religion, or else they would likely consider it mythology. Glad I didn't go to bible college like my mother wanted me to - caused a few arguments!
Baileybear: (I apologize this comment is so long.) This is a beautifully written, heartfelt hub. I feel your pain, reading your writing... growing up in a Christian household myself, I discovered paganism on my own during my early teen years. In order to deal with the usual teen angst I was experiencing, my writing became incredibly dark and disturbing. It wasn't because of my beliefs, but when my parents found my writing, some pieces which openly admitted my new-found system of beliefs, they blamed the disturbing aspects of my personality on this new "evil" I had come to. After confronting my boyfriend of two years, (an atheist, oddly enough,)in what became one of the most terror-filled nights of my life, they forbid us from ever seeing one another again. After summarily dismissing him from our home, the conversation continued, in which my mother blamed me for bringing evil into their home... that through my exploration of one of the most peaceful religions, *I* had brought evil spirits which were damaging to all our family, including my (then) baby sister. After locking me in our basement, (there was running water, but no bathroom, so it's not all that awful,) they placed pots and pans at the front door so I couldn't escape. The days that followed were simply intolerable. There wasn't a day that I woke up and didn't want to kill myself. The real kicker? After all that, that year my parents wouldn't "give me any Christmas presents," since I was a "non-believer." Uhm... The exchanging of gifts on Solstice is actually a pagan belief which was outlawed more than once by Christians throughout history. I don't blame my parents. They handled the situation the best they knew how to. Thank... well... the earth, sun, moon and stars that we were not a Catholic family, I may've been subjected to much worse. (Exorcism, anyone?)
On a different topic, while religious beliefs, and non-beliefs are incredibly personal and it's well within their right, I've never understood why atheists hang out in religious forums. Personally, I wouldn't let it rent any space in my mind if I were truly a non-believer. Why do they care?
Thank-you for publishing this.
Nicole, as I mentioned, I went through depression, which I believe my indoctrination contributed to. I read a story about another ex-christian - they said leaving christianity was akin to throwing up - they felt horrible, and then so much better afterwards.
Extreme religious people can be so delusional and blinded by their beliefs that they abuse the people they are supposed to love. I read how christians drove stakes through the tongues of early scientists that said the world wasn't flat and fixed & the sun didn't actually go around the earth, even though it appears to.
The forums are very hostile - some of the "christians" are extremely judgemental and cruel. I think some atheists persist on there, because they think that maybe they can counter some of the poison? Not sure if futile though
Baileybear: Thank-you for answering my question about the forums, interesting thought... Personally, I think it's futile, you cannot change anyone's faith or beliefs. You can educate, but it's something, (imho,) that has to come from within that person. Some people are extremely judgmental and cruel. I've met some atheists that actually made me want to believe in something "greater" than this... if nothing else so I could feel smug about their extreme prejudice against the spiritual. Any belief system can be taken too far, as we've seen recently far too often, unfortunately. I kind of understand the comfort that it must be, how terrifying it is without it, to believe in something greater than yourself. I wouldn't want to take that away from anyone for anything in this world. On the flip side I admire moderate Christians and atheists alike. Christians, because w/o the bigotry and close-mindedness that's often associated with the religion there are some beautiful morals to be learned from Christianity's followers. I've never seen a group of people at large who do more kindness for their fellow man than Christians do. (I'm not knocking any other groups of people, it's just that there are so many damn Christians.) ;) Atheists, because jerks notwithstanding they've been some of the most morally bound people I have ever met in my life. I'm talking in big generalities here, of course, and again, sorry to leave such a long comment. I just wanted to let you know I've been thinking about this a lot today. It's a great article, thank-you for following me and publishing this.
Nicole - I agree that it's the extremists that are the problem - they are the dangerous, unstable and crazy ones. I talked most about christianity, because that's what I experienced. There are plenty of christians I know that have balanced lives and care about other's wellbeing without ramming their doctrine down other people's throats.
D.Virtual - I might be mistaken, but detect a lecturing/preaching tone coming through.
"I love God, I just can't stand his fans!" LOL!
Seriously I have never believed a person needs "Church" to have a relationship with God or The Universal Mind.
Supposedly all of us are equal in his eyes so why is it necessary to "follow" a minister, pastor, priest...etc? Who needs a "Middleman"?
Ecclesiastes 7:20 "For there is no just man on earth who doieth good and sinneith not." That pretty much says it all. Put your faith in man or place him on a pedistal and you're going to be disappointed.
Hypocrisy is the rule not the exception! Knowing what to do is always easier than doing it!
The best thing this country ever did was allow "freedom of relgion" and that includes not being forced to accept someone's beliefs. Each of our lives is a "personal journey" and therefore so are our relationships with God.
No two children has the same relationship with their parents!
Forget everything. Empty your mind. Then you will find God. Allow others to be what they are. It is not your problem. Develop the highest love for yourself. When you abide in your own continuos inner love, nothing can bother you. Most issues are only in your own mind. Drop those thoughts and you are free of your past and the world. Stay in the present moment and you will see that nothing is happening to you right now, in this moment. The idea of Jesus can work if you know how to use it correctly. If you don't, it will lead to confusion. Don't expect others to live up to his teachings either, they won't. Just develop happiness within you now. Don't worry about the world. It's a waste of time.
From my experience there is a God somewhere out there and I depend on Him. I am not going to try to convince you with anything though. Ask the God himself, You can do this very simple prayer:
'Oh God, whoever you are, show me the true you!'.
Make this call whenever you like. As much as you can. If there is a real God, then He will answer you. And as long as He does not answer I am supporting you in spreading to the world that God does NOT ever exist!
And do not forget to write to me if God makes contact with you. If He is really out there He will answer your call or if not He is simply not worth to pursue!
albc
Interesting post.
I realized at a very young age that most Christian churches were, forgive me, full of crap!
But...
I have way to many unexplained events happen that could not be just coincidences. I walked around with a serial killer, but I somehow stayed safe. I was stranded in a small town in the Bavarian mountians when I was 17 yrs old. Myself and a young, tiny little girl who was African American, found ourselves having to walk alone across the mountians in the middle of the night, but we somehow stayed safe. I fell off the pier into the Detroit river, which was a looonnnggg fall, but didn't even have a scratch on me.
And three days after my husband died, myself and several others could smell his apple scented shampoo. There were no apple trees around and no one else was wearing the scent.
Now...I still don't believe in organized religion. But I do believe there is some sort of higher power out there. But I will never be disrespectful to you and your beliefs. :)
dashing - yes, I read a similar quote by another hubber about finding God's fan club annoying
SriT - I don't want to empty my mind completey - just of all the religious crap
albc - I got tired of speaking to myself long ago
D.V - how about putting your very lengthly views in a hub rather that in my comments
AKA & unbroken - it's amazing what crap people will subscribe to. I'm not totally convinced there isn't 'something' out there; nor that there is
mmm, God did not answer your call. In that case you should do some sincere good did. Maybe do several things that make your parent happy (take them to holiday etc) or do some charitable work in orphanage, or other good dids. the said that say 'what you give you get back' would apply, you would see a different in your persumably gloomy life. i have done the thing that i have said above; and i am healed from depression and insomnia that i suffered for like 15 years + i found God too. all the best!
albc - who said my life is gloomy?
opps, my fault. i thought i found the word 'depression' in your hub above. i was wrong then. All the best again.
when we have a relationship with God, there is an understanding of what we must face in life. God promised that He will never leave us nor forsake us in our time of need. when we are weak He is strong, people who are in the church does not have all the answer...it is a hospital for the sick, and there is no perfection in humans. this is why God says not to look to man, but to
Him.
yes, i can give you quotes day and night but it is the heart that tells the truth to God and what's in the heart comes to light. just as well what's in the dark comes to light. you blame others for your leaving, but you failed to realize that you as well had some responsiblity in it as well.
if there is no love, you supposed to show that love of God in you...see love covers a multitudes of sins. and if the parisheners did not have that love, God wanted to use you to be the remodel of what it is to have love for your fellow man and God in the heart of a true believer.
Jesus was and is that example this is why we have matthew, luke, John,1
i believe it was only an excuse for you to leave the church...you were never there in the first place. see the race does not go to the swiff but to those who can endure what life dishes out to them. i am sorry for how the people has treated,however, if we all allow people to dictate us then we're good for nothing.
i think it is sad that you have allow people "Man" to de ture you from God, but i dont think that is what happen... what happen is you never gave God your heart and mind this is why it was so easy for you to leave the the body of Christ.
Sometimes God put us in situation to where we as His people to be example for those who does not know. See satan knows the word of God, just as well as we do...James says it well "Resist the devil and he shall flee from you" the word of God is our armor, shield , and sword...and if you knew this you would still be at your church.
Even Jesus was tempted, and He used the word of God to defeat satan and his advances. i challenge you today to learn the word of GOd it is our weapon and our tool. THis is why you were defeated.
albc - if you read my hub properly, you will see that I suffered from depression while a christian and didn't get diagnosed for a long time. I am not feeling miserable now.
tired - yep, I knew the bible very well, and I believed. Yes, I left, and I wrote this hub to explain the circumstances around my decision. You are actually saying the exact same things christians said to me (if you read my hub properly) - ie it's my fault; I didn't resist the devil enough; I didn't read the bible enough etc
amp - I see from the forums that other major religions think Paul is a false prophet. What I don't get is that the oldest biblical manuscripts are less than 3000 years old, but are supposed to record details in history for the previous 7000 years - longest game of "chinese whispers" ever!
Your writing is meaningful to me on so many levels. The courage it must have taken for you to leave the church is inspiring to me. I am an agnostic working as a music teacher in a sea of Christians and finding their rhetoric hard to handle lately.
I have been dealing with an overwhelming barrage of symptoms that look like lyme disease but to date I have not had a positive lyme test. Based on recent research of mine I am suspecting salicylates and amines and possibly dairy. When I spoke to a fellow teacher who I felt might have have some helpful insight as her friend has fibromialgia, her comment to me was "you need to get on a prayer chain" and she walked out of the room. I felt deflated, disappointed and discouraged and frankly lost a lot of respect for someone that I had hoped was stronger and kinder.
It has been a painful and disheartening month, so I feel extra gratitude to you for the good laugh I had this morning as I read your posting of the definition of Christianity.
I'll be back, hopefully with more insight, in a few days.
song-ster - yes, it is frustrating that christians think they can just pray themselves healthy (and not attempt to figure it out for themselves). I have yet to write my hubs about food sensitivities - particularly the amines, salicylates, dairy etc. Hopefully, I will get around to it soon
In response to your commment, that the Christians did not offer a reason for why there where marsupials concentrated in Australia, or why the creation was controversial, it was and is still shown in modern life, that many follow a religion without understanding it, which causes the wonder. And yes, there are many who force their beliefs on others, and then cause the person to leave the religion as a false theory of myths, but they also don't truly take the time to understand the basics of the religion that causes such confusion. God's love is not shown by the church, but the church is given instructions to tell of God's love. Sadly, these day's, many Christians do not try to show this love, merely give the illusion that they understand it better, so listen to them. This is a very anti Christian attitude, and is something that makes so many skeptics of former Christians.
God knows how you feel, and he shows his existence every day. Even if you don't believe in him, still there will be people, including me, praying for your heart to open to god.
In his name,
Amen
Crossblood - yes, I noticed the very vocal & forceful christians on the forums did not attempt the difficult questions I asked.
I do actually know some decent people that are christians; unfortunately, there are so many that are abusive in their approach. Either way, I still think they are deluded, but only the latter group are dangerous.
Excellent Hub Baileybear. Theists often accuse us non-believers of not believing because of a lack of knowledge about their religion, however, it is often just the opposite. As professor Isaac Asimov once said "Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived."
AKA Winston - Excellent book recommendation. I have read "Misquoting Jesus" by professor Bart Ehrman and it was eye-opening.
thanks, David. I've been getting personally attacked by the aggressive "christians" on the religious forums. Maybe I unsettled them? Have just written a hub about what I think of the religious forums. Yes, that is a very good quote. I haven't read any atheist books too. I plan to.
I have only just joined this discussion and am saddened by your unfavourable experiences of Christianity, Baileybear. There is so much nonsense perpetrated by well intentioned church goers as your 2nd picture indicates. No wonder you are filled with scepticism. The Church has really lost the plot when she cannot appreciate the Bible, God's word, is a timeless book as God himself is timeless. So it is vital we interpret it in the context of our own era of understanding.
The story of Noah is a metaphor, not an historic record in the literal sense, so is all Genesis chapters 1 to 11. Noah represents a type of Jesus Christ who offered Himself as a sacrifice on the Holy Mt. and thereby releases all who believe in Him from the curse we inherit through Adam. The Ark is the Church which is our vehicle of salvation and the animals are incidental.
Adam was not the first of the human species but the first human to receive a spirit in the likeness of God.
Baileybear, don't listen to what Christians tell you 'cos most of them have'nt a clue. Read the Bible and ask God to tell you how to understand it. He loves you more than you can ever imagine. The depression you suffer results indirectly from the curse, which only God can take away from you.
Kamzezuru - have you dared take your views to the religious forum? Most of the christians I have known take the bible literally. Then some say certain stories are not meant to be taken literally. So confusing.
Baileybear, I just want to say first and foremost that I am a Christian. I really enjoyed reading your Hub, but it did pain me to hear about your experiences. I have known a few people with some of the medical conditions you described, and they struggled with not knowing what was wrong with them for a long time.
My cousin was diagnosed with a wheat allergy when he was 3, prior to this diagnosis his grandmother thought for sure he was autistic. I really appreciate the stand you take against the "health and wealth" mindset of some evangelical Christians. These people would just have everyone quit their jobs, fire their doctors, and pray full time.
I know from experience that prayers won't bring healing, money, or much physical help of any kind. This is one of the most frustrating things I used to deal with in my faith. In fact, the very year I was saved, I was diagnosed with narcolepsy, lost my job, and was evicted. I have two children, so my prayers were always about them, and I tried to keep my prayers as far from selfish as I could.
There are a lot of problems with the world we live in, and I really respect your views on the "why's and how-come's" of living in it. I got my Bachelor of Science in Biology and Chemistry from UAB in Alabama, and I took many courses on evolution, population genetics, biochemistry, and genetics. I know the proof against God seems overwhelming, but in my life the proof for God is undeniable. I'm not preaching, though, just commending you for an important and interesting Hub.
This is who I was and still am treated since I left the church: http://hubpages.com/hub/Thank-You-Christians-For-O
Since when did the arguments of the forums bleed over to the comment sections of good Hubs? DVD, AKA, and the lot should abandon their epic battle of good vs evil in this arena. It's really not the place...
RyanCarter - thank you for the kind words. Looks like you have have experienced similar frustrations to me. Agree the bickering is annoying.
ALL: PLEASE TAKE THESE DISRESPECTFUL ARGUMENTS TO THE FORUMS, NOT ON MY HUB!!!
Thank you for your hub. Best of luck in the future. Ciao.
WILL DELETE ARGUMENTS - PLEASE DON'T BOTHER POSTING ARGUMENTS - THEY WILL BE DELETED - TAKE THEM TO THE FORUMS
I still need to be educated on the authenticity of the origin of Christianity. What are the facts?? The Bible is a history book (as some of you said) so what about the other literature against it? In as much as I do not get answers and my comments are been deleted, I will keep on asking...
I'm not the person to educate you DV. I have just deleted a few dozen pointless arguments. Please take your comments to the forums. Thanks
Great hub Baileybear, and you certainly stirred up some great comment. The thing that struck me here is that the christians don't seem to get it that christ's name is blasphemed among the gentiles because of them!
I used to be a christian, converted at 22, became a pharisee par excellence and was completely deonverted (detoxified) by 53. I was free but I knew that many others were trapped in a netherworld of guilt and confusion, what I call the Christian Outsider. So I am back to encourage people like you.
I can hear and understand your pain and would like to make a few suggestions from my own experience. (1) Don't feel you have to justify yourself to anyone, least of christians. (2) Healing lies in forgiveness not because chrisitians deserve it but because it sets you free. (3) As long as you feel a need to disprove the bible or christians, christianity still defines you; freedom comes when you set yourself free from that ugly legacy. You don't need to prove anything, you are beautiful just as you are. (4) Don't take them so seriously, they as much victims of their own delusions as any kind of fanatic. Make them irrelevant, they really are! It's simply a choice, your choice :)
You have the power! Go for it!
Thanks for having the courage to tell the truth as you see it and as you have experienced it. No one can take the truth that lay within you - away from you. I know first hand that it is not an easy thing to escape the internal 'brainwashing' and 'indoctrination' of a belief system that has divided nations and families and literally cost people their lives. But I think it is more a commentary on human shortcomings and the nature of mankind than on the concept of an imagined omnipotent deity. I hope that you will find the freedom to rest in what you come to know as truth. Isn't it funny that people look at ideas as being solid and unchangeable. Yet, our minds are always learning and digesting new things, new ideas. Anyone who 'forces' someone else to believe something is already wrong. And their reward is in living a life of ignorance and error. I do believe it is possible for us to separate our faith from the separate reality of this material world. The big problem is that issues and matters of faith are forced into a finite, mechanical world. The two are incompatible and some forms of Christianity end up depriving people of relationships, health care and life. If Jesus came that we might have life then why do some of his alleged followers delight in limiting life or taking life away? I hope you will not be discouraged in your search for the truth - whichever way you end up coming to it. Thanks for the article:)
Thanks, Shaun - I think I would have been completely free of it years ago, if I had been able to think clearly years ago (my brain was foggy from health issues). Only recently, I've been moving from agnostic to atheist, and each step is more freedom from the chains of religion. Then I guess, I'll just see myself as another human being. I know I don't have to justify, but I wanted to write this for others that have been damaged by religion too. Also, because I can't tell my family my views - too many arguments. Maybe they will read and understand. Maybe not.
Pedestrain - there's too much in religion that doesn't stand up to simple logic. Of course, even though I felt internal conflict, I didn't dare question it mainly because I was trusting, and I was told things like "it's dumb to doubt." I consider the forcing of views to be abuse, particularly when people say things to vulnerable people that they are possessed by the devil and other destructive poisonous comments. Fear under the guise of love.
Like you Baileybear I have been hurt by Christians I thought should have known better. I am 74 years old and have struggled with the issues that you raise all my life. Gradually I’ve worked through them as God puts the answers straight into my mind. I have written a 30,000 word treatise, the culmination of 30 years of study and agonizing, and given it to several ministers to read, and a few friends, but the feed back has always been nil or negative. It is because I challenge long standing traditions (though I am careful to keep within the bounds of apostolic doctrine, i.e. the Nicene Creed). My views are radical and upset Christians greatly but then so was Jesus’ teaching radical and the Jewish leaders hated Him for it. Please don’t be put off by the nonsense many Christians speak. I had to make a complete break from my church because of this sort of thing.
Baileybear, you have been in a rather similar situation to Job in the Old Testament. He too suffered the jibes and torments of his advisers yet he brought himself to say, “The Lord gives and the Lord takes away, blessed be the name of the Lord.” He went through an awful time of testing but in the end God honoured him with abundance.
I see that some have responded to your hub by urging you to shake off the shackle of religion but I don’t think that will bring you peace either. God is very tenacious and won’t let you go because you are His. Rather shake off the shackles of naïve Fundamentalism which insists the Bible is to be understood literally in every part. You have studied science and know the early parts of the Bible are only ‘first approximations’ mostly of pagan origin as you say, so ignore the ‘letter’ of the text and see the ‘spirit’ of it shining through instead. Always think laterally. When you read that Eve was created out of Adam’s rib, think of her spiritual creation. Think of a heart transplant (ribs have to be opened to get at the heart), as the prophet said “I will take away your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.” Think of the spear that pierced Jesus’ side as he hung on the cross so that we might have hearts of flesh instead of stone. See the spiritual link between Eve and us? And remember Jesus was the Second Adam who came to do what the first Adam failed to do! Read Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28 to find out what went wrong and you will discover the origin of Satan, with Adam being the fallen angel. The Tree of Life was in Eden because God was there and the tree of knowledge because Adam was there. The River represents the Holy Spirit which flows out to the four corners of the world, Murray, Mississippi, Amazon and Danube because our world now extends well beyond the Middle East!
You know from your studies of God’s works (creation) that the world was never a utopian paradise as the Garden of Eden is generally depicted. The Garden of Eden is the state of being in communion with God on earth where He says, “I will never leave you nor forsake you.” The world is a harsh place which God told Adam to subdue. Its perfection is functional not aesthetic. I myself am in the Garden of Eden where all my burdens and worries are shouldered by Jesus and yours can be too.
Kamzezuru - have you put your thoughts into writing on hubpages? Somebody will be touched by your words. I spend the first half of my life being told what I had to believe, and have been spending the second half of my life so far recovering from the experience. I'm definitely a skeptic (which is really my true nature).
Baileybear,... bravo! Wonderfully written, and you ask some potent questions.
I feel perhaps ego is the greatest evil, and most "Christians" I've met are poor Christians in the original sense of the word.
I love science. There is real sanity there. Logic, mathematics, astronomy, geology, and computer science are just some of my favorites.
I've studied a lot of religions, especially Christianity, Buddhism, Taoism, Scientology and Judaism. I have experienced (created) more than a dozen "miracles." A bold claim, yes. But understanding the mechanics of something sometimes allows one to have control over it.
I've been a published author, a Hollywood artist, an award-winning essayist and short story writer, and gained a bachelor's degree in Information Technology (computers) summa cum laude.
Yet my proudest achievement was cracking the code on creational mechanics (creating miracles), and testing my hypothesis numerous times with instantaneous and positive results. The most outrageous of these was on a major boulevard in Los Angeles, 1977.
Most Christians don't know what they're talking about. Very few realize that the Bible talks about reincarnation and karma. I had one Christian disown me as a friend because I tried to show him where it said these things.
Perhaps my second-proudest achievement was that of deciphering part of the "code" in Genesis. Thinking like a computer programmer, I debugged the failed interpretations of others and found many answers in the apparent flaws. I found out the truth behind the outrageous longevity of the early patriarchs. I found the meaning behind God's over-the-top protection of the murderer, Cain. I discovered a biblical timeline compatible with those of science. I analyzed the Noah Flood story and found the culprit and what they did that was so bad. And more than thirty years after my discovery of "creational mechanics," I discovered this breakthrough had been in Genesis all along, hidden in plain sight.
Why would such powerful wisdom be "hidden" in the Bible? Perhaps to keep the egotistical, religious fanatics (like all the Christians who verbally abused us in the past) from discovering that wisdom. There are so many tales of lottery winners in the USA who ultimately lost not only their winnings, but much, much more, as well. With great wealth comes great responsibility, and many of them had never learned that responsibility or the financial acumen to perform the needed tasks. Perhaps a similar thing can be said of any subject; for example, nuclear energy. Did we ever really have the wisdom, as a species, to use such power? The children of Nagasaki and Hiroshima might ask that question.
I like your intellect, Baileybear. I look forward to reading more of your stuff. And thanks for this one. I give it two thumbs up!
lone77star - from one intellectual to another. I did a degree in analytical chemistry and also studied genetics, biochemistry, microbiology - I enjoy finding out what's in everything - I'm analytical by nature.
I read a very interesting idea from an intellectual that astrology is all through the bible, and the bible is code for sun worship.
He explained it well and made a lot of sense. He got lots of hate mail! I posted some links on my hub.
I don't have such career achievements, although I did win third prize in an Australasian essay-writing competition (on mood disorders), so was pretty chuffed about that.
Thanks for sharing your story!
I believe many Christians lack wisdon and are no capable of indepent thought, they parrot what the have heard their pastors say.
In their meger attempt to try to help you they make it worse, by throwing scriptuers at you that they don't fully understand themselve. Never daring to venture out of the box of reason. Everything IS NOT a deomon. Chemical emblance of the brain is physical, thus when balance is returned depression improves.
I am a believer and I do love God, it is the self-serving religious spirit that some christians have that I can do without.
2bsure - thanks for sharing. I agree that many (most) never think for themselves. The self-righteous ones on the forums regurgitate the same old condemnation stuff. Sufferers of mental illness don't need additional stigma (eg the demon possession BS)
Good news...God loves U and there is no hell..just a lot of funny thoughts that can play tricks on the mind...needs a good cleaning every now and then...Fear is not part of Love..never was,never will be....
Manchild - I agree fear is not love
Its agreed then :) ...write that one down... its a start we'll have our own religion in no time...
well not totally agreed - I no longer believe god exists
sorry I came accross a bit much there ..feel free 2 delete my post...I was trying to be funny but it backfired...I'd be one of the people who think it doesn't matter whether U believe or not...U can't change the truth..and the fear is not love statement was aimed at certain religious heads..a means by which to tell the genuine appart.. ...and science is only half right...U can't base everything on what U can see...If U did then surgeons would still be operating without washing their hands...and we would have no electricity..so excuse the latter text...I'm glad Ur out of it ..they don't sound like good people..or at least they may be good people who by fear or delusion do negative things..
I'd go with a couple of things S Lindburgh said above....he seem's like a reasonable man....
hope U find peace...and if u have it...well then well done..
What a sad story from beginning to end. Glad to see you are now ex religious, but you were never a Christian. You can’t have a personal intimate relationship with the Lord and Creator Jesus Christ, then deny His existence, Jesus hated religion.
A very well researched and honest hub. I comment on religious forums because I just don't like lies and myths posing as truth.
The truth is out there. Outside the fantasy and myths of religion.
Unfortunately the religious will seldom have the courage to do as you have done and question obvious lies and myths than are totally unsupported outside the religious tomes that perpetrated them.
Well done for breaking out of what doesn't hold or nurture you. If there is such a thing as God, perhaps it did you a great service by getting you out of the hell you were experiencing. (I personally understand there is no such thing as a personal God). Sounds like you've had a massive trip getting to where you are now and that's worth much more than a thousand bibles.
I also think it takes courage to make a stand. When my parents died, I insisted on having non-religious services for their funerals. Those who attended said that they felt almost relieved by the lack of conformity and found the whole thing to be more personal and caring. All, that is, except a few 'christians', who did not hesitate to mention that it was not a good idea to have a non-christian service. It seemed to me at the time that some beliefs stem from sheer habit rather than true belief. I too was 'saved' as a teenager, only to find there were more questions than answers as I progressed though the hard knocks of life. When my mum died only six weeks after being diagnosed with breast cancer, it was the final straw. There could'nt be a god.
no worries, Manchild - it's hard to tell the tone that was intented with writing. I really like science - actually you can see micro-organisms - need a microscope. Electricity can be detected & measured etc. Can't say the same for the supernatural.
Spiderpam - ask anyone that knew me when I was a christian and ask them if I was a "real" christian. If there is any truth in what you said, how can anyone be sure they are "saved"?
Earnest - Nice to meet someone that is brave enough to tackle the forums etc. I see atheists sometimes get hate mail (gee, I wonder who from - surely, not the monotheist religions??) I've been hanging out of the forums out of curiosity - and there have been absolutely no convincing arguments as to why people believe in God - same old stuff is regurgitated again and again
Thankyou Jewel. I have contributed some material towards a book project - an ex-christian is writing about the psychological abuse suffered in the church, particularly pentecostal churches - they are making a compliation of stories from the many, many ex-christians out there
Newmariedy - I don't want a religious funeral. I am working on a hub about death currently (in response to a frequently asked question by christians). If my parents want religious funerals, then I will respect their wishes. Yep, I think it is habit/indoctrination that true belief - we learn off those around us. I recall the sad true story of a boy that was neglected and raised with chickens. He flapped his arms like wings, pecked around in the grain, had no human language etc as no human interaction - very sad.
I am thankful you wrote this hub, but at the same time very saddened about your experiences, physical, emotional, and spiritual.
My heart goes out to you and I want you to know that you are not alone, you have a wonderful husband and child to share this life. I can emphathise with all your ailments and am so glad to hear you are doing so much better.
My greatest hope for you is that you would never experience the pain of rejection again, the agonizing torment of depression and the physical ailments you have endured.
lcg4jc - thank you for empathising. Yes, life can be unfair - my depressive disorder and autoimmune condition are now under control (no thanks to god); it is hard raising a child on the autistic spectrum; we struggle to make ends meet financially - but we are survivors. Trying to kid myself that a supernatural being might eventually decide to help me was psychological torture. Listening to "believers" blame me for misfortunes in life was psychological torture. I'm sharing what I've learnt, hopefully to help others that have similar struggles in life
That compilation of stories will be helpful for many. I've had clients who have had to deconstruct their Christian indoctrination. Guilt and worthlessness is the most common of mind scars. It can be very difficult to undo, depending on the person. Very damaging.
Jewels - yes, guilt, fear, worthless are big emotions, along with the whole cognitive dissonance
“I believe this life is the only one I've got,” but just what if you are wrong? What if there is something after this? Wouldn’t it be better to believe and it turns out not to be true, than to not believe and it turns out that there is a heaven and a hell?
I went through similar conflict, but decided that I will not let the people in the church rob me of my inheritance.
Writing this hub http://hubpages.com/hub/What-is-Psychologically-He
was quite cathartic, I hope you can find time to read it and will find help in your quest for answers.
ProjectsConsult - "what if I am wrong...better to believe..." - what, you mean fake a belief? I've already had more than one christian on here accuse me of not being a genuine christian when I genuinely believed. I wonder how many continue to "believe" because of fear of hell?
I find the god of the bible similar to Hilter - it's not a god I want to know
This is a nice hub but there are too many links I think. Really useful, though.
thanks for the feedback, parkersarah. Any other feedback regardling links?
Dear Baileybear,
if you were agnostic, you wouldn't be having so many questions related to the existence of God. Deep inside you know God is there, but you are very unsatisfied with the fact that your prayers aren't/weren't answered. Well, mine aren't either, but I will be persistent because I truly believe in the existence of God (The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit). Don't bother yourself with stories about Adam and Eve, Noah etc. If you are good inside and you always try to do good to yourself and others, then God is with you. God is not a wizard always ready to please our wants. Why is life so difficult? Well, we all wonder every day! Just try to be more positive and accept life as it is. That's the art of living. By the way, I got celiac, but allergy to milk matters, too. When I take sth into my organism through food that my body's rejecting, I become all red and full of nettle rash, which makes me nervous and depressive for hours. Be very careful what you eat, it's a tricky disease.
God bless you and your family!
well, agnostics do have questions, and I've been agnostic for years, and moving towards atheist. I clung to the belief that god exists for years and years, despite the cognitive dissonance within.
Yes, I have allergy to milk too, and other food sensitivities, which I have yet to write about. Anyway, turns out all my health problems (incl depression) were to do with my food sensitivities and nothing spiritual.
Even if a supernatural being exists, the "relationship" people have with him/it is nothing more than an imaginery friend. God has never helped me - I am a parent and I help my son
I'm glad to have read this article... I've been on this journey too and have experienced strikingly similar things as well... but as long as you stay true to what you feel and choose to believe in, no one can take that sincere desire to seek the truth from you. Take care.
thanks, daniel - I think there are many of us that have been on a similar journey, and it takes courage to admit it.
Reading your other hubs I have seen you've got a great husband and a wonderful child. Yes, he has Asperger's syndrome, but he can still live more or less normally. Isn't that the help from God, too? How many people in the world want what you have so bad, but they can't have it and ask themselves the same questions about God that you do? If he had cancer, he would probably die. But, your son lives! You got fired because someone else was unjust, so what? Happened to me more than once. It's just life. Life isn't over yet, there are many more chances for you and your family to reach out for. Just think positive!
Yes,vox vocis, it is just life. We have our ups and downs. We have good days; we have crap days. I don't feel sorry for myself. I just don't see what God has to do with it
Exactly! Tell me, when you were a "Christian" and I asked you "Are you going to heaven?" What would have been your answer? "I sure hope so", or “I go to church, I do nice things" "I do this, I do that."
Did you feel like you were working your way to heaven with your good deeds? Did you do comparative salvation "Well I'm no Stalin, so I should get to go."
See that is not a Christian that’s a religious person. The bible says you will KNOW you have everlasting life, and our good deeds are like filthy rags to God (Isaiah 64:6). We can’t earn our way if we could Jesus died in vain. The good works Christians do is a reaction to the Grace of God. Only a cardinal mind would see grace as a license to sin.
I was kind of like you (I was a comparative salvation gal myself) I had questions, grew up religious (thought I was a Christians), but became a Christian later in life. There are answers to all of your articles questions, but of course, you have to be open-minded and soft hearted to seek and find them. Be well.
I read your Hub with great interest. I've been through an extremely stressful time with our family -- five special needs kids we adopted and a guardian entering adulthood along with becoming a young grandparent and having to take guardianship for over a year. I feel there's been little support from our church -- except for our family psychologist who has worked with our family for over 19 years. A counselor I'm seeing, who's a Christian, told me maybe I should take a break from going to church for a while. That's tough for my wife. Yet, I don't see disbelieving in God or Christ -- even though my Bible reading times are shorter I still enjoy Hebrews 9 and Hebrews 2 as my favorite chapters and I've been reading mostly Psalms. I'm still recovering from a few years of trauma. Your story is important for Christians to consider how to wisely come alongside someone who is hurting and to see where the physiological needs exist in addition to the emotional and spiritual.
Ironically, we have some highly qualified scientists in our adult Sunday class and a philosopher; my point isn't a disagreement with science it's knowing how to help kids who are developmentally delayed and traumatized and the toll it takes on parents.
Hi Baileybear. A good honest hub and I see exactly where you are coming from. I've left my church, I can't go back, I don't believe so much of their doctrines anymore. The whole pushy evangelism thing grates on me, as does church culture. In Jesus time people believed in demons under the bed: you'd have thought the church would have grown up by now. It makes me so angry that the church cries "demon, demon", when someone has physical or mental health issues, or the car breaks down, or they run up debts. If you don't believe what you are told, you are not a proper Christian. Overall, it's the blind acceptance of what comes out of the pulpit that I don't understand.
As for creationism, I think it's all born out of a fanatical opposition to evolution. Creationism is trying to get the bible to answer questions that it was never supposed to.
A year ago I decided to search the scriptures for myself and doctrine I was brought up with began to unravel. I found hubpages and a group of likeminded people. I believe in God and Jesus, they still make sense to me. Life would all the poorer without my faith. Science is great, I love to read about discoveries, but I mindful that it cannot answer everything. For that I see God underpinning everything else. Though why God has nver healed my wife of years of physical ills, I don't know. Still, life goes on.
spiderpam - it's funny how the christians on here accuse people like me of never being a real christian in the first place - I was the "works" - "born again" etc. Your accusation indicates that you do not know me whatsoever to make such assumptions and judgements
Don - as you can see, I'm still getting judged by christians. I know of other people that had a "God break". The attitudes of other christians can be the opposite of love
Disappearinghead - totally get what you are saying too - the whole thing grates me now - like you say, "demon" this, "demon" that. Only recently, I've been thinking God doesn't exist at all. The judging of fellow christians is very hurtful
You claim you were a Christian; I challenged that claim with questions. I have a presupposition (knowing the bible, and what it says a Christian really is) but that in no way accuses or judges. To avoid answering my simple yes/no questions, you choose the argument by generalization fallacy (your “funny how the Christians, which implies a generalization of all Christians), and an appeal to pity fallacy (I am a victim, you ‘Christians’ accuse and judge, poor me, bad Christians). These fallacies are popular, and may even convince like-minded people, but in no way support, your articles premise. My questions stand, be well.
Spiderpam, I hope people take note of your judgemental, hateful tone and words - typical of many "christians" that are quick to judge but lack empathy. Did I believe I was going to heaven - "yes, I believe I was saved" - why should I have to justify anything to you? "Christians" like you only repel me further away from christianity - but you will be blind to see it. I read some of your hubs - so much hate. So sad that you think you are presenting a message of love. No wonder people are afraid to be honest when they have doubts - they get annihilated by hypocrites that don't have a clue about love. I don't have a problem with all christians - a few christians on here understand exactly where I'm coming from. I am not a victim - how dare you accuse me of being one. I have shared my story to connect with those who are suffering in silence, fearful to speak out, because they will be assaulted by the likes of you. Don't bother leaving further comments. If God exists, may he judge fairly and condemn the judgemental hypocrites that further whip those that have already been crucified by their fellow "believers"
well mrs bear i'm sorry for your bad experience with the religion you were born into,its eatzy to get the wrong idea about people on these sites,you seem like a good person a person worth saving,you know you should not blame god for the lack of compassion and understanding of a few misguided souls,you know their is a passage that says,in those days they shall say lord lord have we not healed,cast out devils,fed the poor,cared for the widows and orphans all in your name,and he shall say to them i never knew you.if you understand this passage with gods intent then you have knowledge,we are made strong thru our infirmities,our trials our tribulations god says be ye not faint when the tempter comes,you know the church is the bride of christ but their is only one true bride,a building does not make gods church,it says also where two or more are gathered in my name their is my church,their are many religions but religion won't save you only Jesus blood can do that and once done it can't be undone,we have all sinned all of us and come short of the glory of god their is not one good amongst us,we are after all just forgiven no mater what you may think just because god didn't answer that prayer he didn't leave you some times we just have to slow down get to our selves meditate listen to the small voice,i know what you'v been thru with uncertainty i'v had my share of disappointments in life the devil tempted me in all manor some i fell for some i resisted,i could write a hub on the subject but thru it all i remain true to the god of Abraham, Issac,and Jacob so i know what its like to resist,i also know about rejection of people you love dearly,the pain,the loneliness,my heart bleeds for you as it greves the master,god will never give up what he has payed for with the blood of his only begotten son jesus he will redeam what is his,his will be done on earth as it is in heaven.amen shalom
1eyedix - thankyou for stopping by; I can see that you can empathise with where I'm at
One more point Baileybear. Here's an analogy. I used to work for the Ford Motor Comapany as a test engineer. The cars I worked on were honest high integrity attemps by the company to produce a good car. However, there was always this questionable reputation with some members of the public. But that was nearly always down to the quality of service by the dealerships and servicing. A common phrase was good car let down by the servicing network. This I believe is true of God. He loves you and cares about your life, but He and you are let down by the church, the very people who often make such a bad job of presenting Him. Your image of Him suffers as a result. What can I suggest other than you give Him another go, don't throw out the baby with the bath water.
Disappearinghead - I can't see myself ever stepping foot in a church again - even the "socialising" bothers me (which now makes sense with my Asperger's diagnosis). I'm reading extensively about lots of things and will make my own mind up about it. I'm looking at evolution etc again (when I studied it previously, I justified God must have done it) and plan to look at a few atheists viewpoints
You do not have to show this on your hub, but read it, please.
You use the appeal the audience fallacy, I am addressing you, I do not care what anyone thinks. The argument by emotive language does not work here either. This fallacy uses strong accusatory language ("hateful tone", "hypocrite" "judgmental hypocrites" "so much hate", "assaulted by the likes of you") to distract from the debate and in no way references truth, logic or the topic at hand. You claim "I'm rational now”, yet you retrieve to these fallacious and irrational arguments and responses.
You said, "Yes, I believe I was saved", this is not biblical; the bible says you will KNOW you have everlasting life, not believe you are. Therefore, the ex Christian war wound, you so proudly wear and use and cornerstone of your disbelief is invalid. You were religious (and so was I) you relied more on your religion and your works, than God and His word. You claimed victim hood throughout your article and many of your responses, and you were a victim of religion, but it has no bearing on the exchange between you and me.
You read my hubs, great, read them all, I am not ashamed of the gospel of Jesus Christ, or my convictions, and I speak the truth in love.
How do you define love? Is it letting people do whatever they want? Or not telling them the truth because it ‘hurt’ their feelings? That is not how the bible describes love. “Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, and it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does NOT delight in EVIL but rejoices with the TRUTH. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, and always perseveres. Love never fails.”
Think of an overdue intervention, where a person is comfortable in their vices and addictive behaviors, and someone loves them enough to tell them they need rehab (to repent) and recovery (trust in Jesus Christ for forgiveness and salvation). Because they too have been there before. That is real love. The 'love' you speak of is neither real nor based in reality.
Here is a quote that will drive my point home
"Real love/compassion ought to make us visit the prisoner, dry out the alcoholic, help the pregnant girl prepare for the baby, and encourage the young homosexual to live chastely. But how much easier it is to forget the prisoner; give the drunk a drink, send the girl to the abortionist, and tell the kid to just give in. False compassion is a great deal less work than true.”
Jay Budziszewski
Be well
Spiderpam, Why do you put yoursefl on a pedestal. Does It Make You Feel Superior http://hubpages.com/hub/Does-It-Make-Them-Feel-Sup or something. What kudos are you trying to make for yourself getting nto heaven. Please, if you have nothing nice to say then don't say anything at all. No human is able to get others to go to their God. God calls those when he/it is ready for them. Yes the Holy Spirit can work through them but you don't get to say who has that spirit or not and who gets to God or not. You are not at the right side of God and you don't do his bidding. You have no idea what Unconditional Love is--not one clue.
Great Hub. I am saddened by how the church and your family treated you. This is a prime example of "I'm right and your wrong" attitude!
I believe God does exist! I realize science cannot prove his existence but I believe he doesn't want people to know witout a doubt that he exists. I believe he wants us to chose him by faith. That is my personal belief.
I understand the pain you went through and I'm so sorry. I don't believe anyone has to go to church to be a christian. We have far too many churches who hurt more than they help.
It is great that you and your son are in much better health. Many times it takes our own investigation to self diagnose. Doctors are not perfect and nobody knows our bodies like we do.
I understand your thoughts and why you chose the path you took. As a christian I try not to judge anyone for their decision or beliefs. I believe love and compassion goes much further. If we show hate and ridicule all we do is push someone away. If we show unconditional love then we pull someone close to us. Jesus was a prime example of love without biased. He said to forgive and those who are witout sin to cast the first stone. He taught love, forgiveness, compassion, healing, and peace. If everyone would follow jesus' example there would be far fewer problems in the world.
I truly believe Jesus is the son of a true and living God. I understand why you feel the way you do. It's tough when the people around us are judgemental and harsh. I believe this is one of the things Jesus taught against. I also believe we all suffer because we are human. It is the reality of life. We live, procreate, laugh and cry, are healthy then sick, then we die. It's all a part of life.
I've seen your posts quite a bit. And I've noticed something... you are not mean towards Christians unjustly. Some deserve to be told the truth. I believe you truly are seeking information as do I. I am always seeking and searching for truth. Of course, nobody knows everything. It's a part of life to look for understanding and truth. I believe the truth is in Jesus. You don't have to agree. One thing I think you and I both agree on is a person's belief doesn't make them good or bad! The problem comes when people look down at others for their beliefs and use their beliefs to bash others. I can carry on descent conversations with anyone as long as they respect me and I respect them.
libby - thank you for the kind comments. I've enjoyed reading your posts on the forum. I've been intrigued how you believe in both God and science. I'm not sure if God exists - I'm still checking it out.
Bdazzler (an open-minded, kind christian like yourself) summed up my hubs accurately: pain, intelligence, seeking
As a math graduate, and a "literal" Christian, I would say the Bible didn't teach a flat earth... This is what called "Straw Man"--"They" assumed that it teaches flat earth, and assumed those who believed it were "Christian", and then one thing leads to another... the result: Another accusation that Bible is inconsistent or not credible.
I read all your experience and logic against biblical Christianity, but all I see, through the math lens, is ample evidence against denominational and institutional churches, instead of the "biblical church" and "biblical Christianity". I have read the arguments you bought up before, but I still couldn't see any definite and conclusive evidences against the Bible.
I do believe in the 6 twenty-four hour days creation. If the UFO, and ET aliens have so many sightings, and based on statistic and ample antidote testimonies from many credible witnesses, which prove that there is a very high chance that a spiritual race of "aliens" that can materialize at will (see my article "Are Alien Real?" in my Christian blog), instead of the popular belief of physical aliens. How do we know that the "God" couldn't materialize the Earth using however much time He liked? He preferred 6 days and there was no mathematical loophole in that "theory" since He didn't create the earth with brick and mortar, which means He was restricted by work hour and resources. BTW, the order of the 6 days make total sense in term of the framework of today's discovered scientific laws. For example, He created the law of light first before He created everything else(Relativity is based on speed of light). The follow days He also created new laws that have to come in order.
I didn't write what i just wrote with detailed info at my hand, so please forgive my paraphrase of the details.
I personally think that you are close to truth in some of the points, and some tendency to anti-biblical beliefs in some other points. I am not saying you are wrong. To debate on the many points you brought up right here right now is too time consuming and ineffective, so allow me to narrow it down to the capacity of a comment.
It's like life insurance. Term life insurance is the best, but the industry creates a huge gray area where permanent life insurance appears to be flexible, offer choices, tax-deferred and all that. See my hubs that exposed the lies of the industry.
Which almost suggest to me that a "biblical" Satan does exist to cause this type of chaos and confusion, because the Bible says he is the author of confusion.
And then people might ask why would God allows Satan to cause confusion and blah blah blah. If God disallowed Satan to do that, people would complain still. They would complain that God never let His creation try to prove Him wrong. The complaints never end no matter what God says and what God does.
It's like your own experience, no matter how legitimate your opinions and challenges to the churches are, they will always find ways to attack your observation and rightful questionings. You also see how prodigy get wrongfully criticized and ridiculed because people are too dumb to understand her thinking. It is perfectly logical to have so many arguments against the Bible (even though I think they are inconclusive and not tight enough to prove anything wrong), because if the Bible is indeed as perfect as it claims, then there must be a lot of people who will challenge it, because imperfect people always ridicule truth right? We have been humans long enough to notice this reality aren't we?
Saikit,
Why would an educated person put so much confidence into the reliability of the bible to be inerrant? One has to suspend disbelief and be purposefully ignorant of the reality of how the present book came to be in order to believe inerrancy. A literal understanding is downright strange, in my opinion.
If you believe in a literal book, then you must believe that donkeys and snakes could at one time talk, that men can be swallowed and live inside of great fishes for three days, and that a bush can burn but not be consumed by fire?
Is sounds to me like what you consider biblical belief to me would be called belief in surrealism.
Quote "In addition, my son and I were diagnosed with Asperger's Syndrome, which is on the autistic spectrum. We see the world differently from other people. The difficult experiences in my life made sense - I wasn't "cursed" like I'd been told. I had been struggling with an invisible disability along with an undiagnosed autoimmune disorder.
I figured all this out without prayer. God didn't seem to answer my prayers anyway, so I had given up praying. I was now feeling well, and wanted to go back to work part-time. We got massive improvements with my son with diet, but there were still some issues. "
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You figured out the symptoms and the diseases. Okay, how does that prove that you were not "cursed"?
I am not saying that you are right or you are wrong on this point. Just want some clarification.
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"Historically, religion was used politically - to control people. It is still used to control people's minds."
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Historically, power mongers used all kind of things to control people, they used legislation, police, army, weapons, propaganda, ideology, science, and whatever to control people's mind.
I do agree that religions are bad in general. Humans do use religion for their egos and own agenda. This happens all the time, but religion isn't the only tool.
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"It has been a difficult process reframing my beliefs -it was a process over many years. My experience of christianity was psychologically damaging. I feel more freedom the more I let what I was indoctrinated with go."
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I too went through some crises of faith. This was also a process over many years. The experience of life in general is psychologically damaging, but the results depend on how we deal with every challenge in life.
I do agree that indoctrination does create abuses and bondage to many people.
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"The dangerous ones are the bigots - like the "christian" on the forums that was judgemental about a young man's homosexual lifestyle prior to his suicide after a hate crime was committed against him. There are some "christians" on the religious forums that make hate comments, and then accuse others of hating them."
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I do get many "hateful" comments from "Christians" as well, especially when I disagree with them. There is always a handful few, however, who will truly listen to what you say, think, and then respond.
Isn't it a reality in everywhere? We all get hateful comments anywhere anytime for anything we say. This is the world we live in.
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"Many atheists know the bible better than christians - many used to be christians at one time. They get irritated and frustrated with christians that refuse to see logic. "
I admit that many Christians didn't read the Bible, but were really vocal. Many do refuse to see logic.
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All in all, I am not here to argue, but just to chip in. If I did say anything that was inviting a fight, I am sorry, because I do intend to build rapport here. I want to summarize what you said to show you that I do listen, before I might actually disagree, or not, in the future.
The conclusion is, if we choose to believe in something, it better be right. If enough is enough, choosing to stop believing in it isn't wrong.
I have been going through many crises of faith. Now I still believe in faith healing, still believe in 6 days creation, still believe in heaven and hell, still believe in Bible, and still blah blah blah (Too much to explain here)
In fact, I realized I didn't really choose to commit into these beliefs above before, I was in the organized Church for too long. Yes, many of them managed to ignore the supernatural part of the Bible and muddle through their religious life and choose not to open this can of worms. Choosing to somehow accepting the indoctrination of their churches, while at the same time claiming the Bible is true, even though the Bible goes against their indoctrination.
On the other hand, I do go through your process, and I think I give the thoughts many good hearings, but there is just not enough evidence and logical proofs to make me stop believing.
If I truly have done everything the Bible teaches, and the amputees that I am praying for still didn't grow a limb... hm... and in this hypothetical case, I would say to stop believing is the right choice.
However, I haven't finish testing and experimenting everything the Bible says yet, and the last 12 months I have become a more biblical Christian than an institutional/denominational Christian, so I think it is reasonable to give this biblical model a fair chance before I switch my life direction.
Sounds right to me.
"If God exists, may he judge fairly and condemn the judgemental hypocrites that further whip those that have already been crucified by their fellow "believers""
Although I haven't read your opponent's comment deep enough to agree with your using this against him, but this quote is justified in general.
BTW, I don't believe in the "If you are ex-Christian, then you were never a Christian to begin with" argument either.
"Christians" who believed this dogma might make themselves feel better, but this is not what the Bible teaches. The Bible never claimed that a Christian cannot choose to stop being a Christian, nor does it say a Christian is "Once saved always saved".
In order words, in the framework of Bible, a Christian can indeed choose Hell!
So the quote you wrote will be fulfilled, if the Bible turns out to be true.
If you think many "Christians" used Hell to "threaten" you, you may tell them "ya, and many of you will come with me" (Again, for the sake of argument, let just pretend that you believe the Bible)
I am saying, let them taste their own medicine, if they tried to persecute you religiously. If they merely point out that Hell exists, then I would suggest not to use this against them.
Saikit - my weakness is advanced maths and advanced physics (which I don't really understand). I studied chemistry, biology (including genetics & biochemistry) and geology at university therefore easily understand those kinds of concepts, and the evidence behind evolution is overwhelming, therefore, I can't hold onto the idea of a literal interpretation of creation, young earth etc. I take it you do not have much knowledge of genetics, or you would understand that food sensitivities including celiac disease are inherited (not a supernatural curse).
I'd be interested in reading your views if you put them into a hub though. Whether I would find them convincing or not, would remain to be seen.
My current thinking (I am willing to mould my belief system with new information) is that religion was a way to try and come up with a reason for existence. I've been researching history of religion, and have been fascinated how much christianity is "borrowed" from pagan beliefs, including the concepts of heaven and hell. I'm no expert, and willing to admit that I don't have all the answers. It sounds like you are seeking truth, like I am. I wish you well.
Baily I beieve the earth is very, very old. And the bible actually shows this in more than one place. The very first and second verses of Genesis sheds some light.
"In the beginning God created the heavens and the Earth"
"And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters." (Genesis 1:2 KJV)
It says "in the beginning" God created the heavens and the Earth. Take this literally and think about it. Then read this verse:
"For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men."
(2 Pet 3:5-7 KJV)
This verse in 2 Peter tells of an Earth of old that was in a ruined state...but God put the waters back to where they go. I believe the Earth was made in the beginning with the heavens... then it was ruined somehow as Peter talks about. Then if you read this together you get a clear picture that God's creations started from a ruined Earth. There was waters out of place etc...
It is no coincidence that in the Bible at Genesis 1:2 describes the Earth as flooded, desolate, and in darkness in the timeframe closely corresponding to these catastrophic events in the Earth's natural history. Clearly, these two mysteries are linked.
I believe many of the fossils we find are from the "old earth" and I believe God had a world before us. And it is highly likely there were "humanoids".
The bible is written for man... and "old earth" did not involve God's relationship with us. I believe this is why it is not spoken of much.
libby, I would be interested to read any hubs you write on your views of how you find science and christianity compatible
It's called "Beyond the Gap Theory".
I had been studying this ideal for a while. I found this fairly quickly when looking into Genesis with an open mind. Then after reading many other things... such as a passage in Isaiah... I came to a very valid conclusion! The earth was here way before he created modern man. After coming to this conclusion I did a little research and found this theory...which is very close to what I had found all on my own.
I just gave you the basic information. However... there is much more in between. Such as I believe the Earth was sitting partly in water because there was complete destruction... and stars hold much water... and if the solar system was destroyed then it would explain why the earth was sitting partially in water (stars destroyed forcing a massive amount of water etc..).
Just do a search and read it with an open mind. I don't expect you to agree. Just what if????
Thanks for listening!!
I plan on writing several hubs about the issue I mentioned above... plus several other issues involving creation and evolution. I believe it makes perfect sense.
I've just been so busy lately. I have been researching... just not exactly took the time to write yet. I will try to get to it ASAP though.
By the way: Just a note.... the theory came forth way before Darwin's evolution. So it wasn't to downplay his theory. It was a true discovery of someone doing research.
libby, I'd be interested in seeing what you come up with - tying together your belief in God, old Earth, evolution. Understand about being pressed for time. I'm currently working on a hub about death (as per a request from a christian). Have got some food sensitivity hubs to write. I take a while to get hubs out as spend time researching etc - so I'm definitely not on hubpages to make money LOL
I have been reading with interest the dialogue between Baileybear and libby101a, noting your desire Baileybear for libby101a's views and my own to be put into a hub. I really want to do that and have started composing one but it is all new to me and I'm daunted by it. Can an old dog be taught new tricks?
I can certainly provide answers to most of the problems that have been raised as long as my solutions from 'outside the box' are acceptable.
Go for it, Kamzezuru. There's plenty of help in the forums and other hubs on how to make hubs. It's easy to learn for people that have no programming knowledge (like me).
Saikat - I'm not going to spend ages debating with you. Your information is out-of-date by decades. The oldest rocks have been dated using 4 isotopic methods (not including carbon, which doesn't go that far), eg lead-lead, uranium-lead. Radiometric methods can be cross-checked by numerous other methods eg reversals of Earth's field recorded in the sea floor; the time taken for Earth to move over volcanic hot-spots etc. Even dating from tree rings, lake sediment layers, ice layers in Antartica are enough to discredit the biblical-literist claims that Earth is less than 10,000 years old.
As for a curse - did it suddenly 'vanish' when I figured out that food sensitivities were the reasons for my health issues? Me being cursed is as much nonsense as me being possessed by demons when I was depressed. Curses are for the superstitious.
I suggest you go away and get up to date with science (this stuff was all well known when I did my degree nearly 20 years ago, and has only been more refined since, including huge advances in genetics showing timeframes and migration of humans supporting Darwin's original evolutionary theory coined 150 years ago). Nope, I don't want to dialogue to last - I don't want my comments clogged up by one person that is misinformed. Write a hub when you have thoroughly read up on the stuff I told you about and then let me know and I will be happy to check it out.
Your friend sounds like he has an Intelligent Design stance (a weak argument by creationists - if it's complex then someone must have made it). Does your friend also know that "junk code" DNA also exists across many seemingly unrelated species? Does he know that an amoeba has a genome 200 larger than our? Even rice has a genome larger than humans.
BailyBear, I wrote that hub I was telling you about. Here is it: http://hubpages.com/hub/The-Myth-Of-Peace-and-Love
Fatfist - the abuse (sexual, psychological, spiritual)that occurs again and again in the church is alarming and disgusting.
LG - look forward to reading soon
"I suggest you go away and get up to date with science (this stuff was all well known when I did my degree nearly 20 years ago, and has only been more refined since, including huge advances in genetics showing timeframes and migration of humans supporting Darwin's original evolutionary theory coined 150 years ago). Nope, I don't want to dialogue to last - I don't want my comments clogged up by one person that is misinformed. Write a hub when you have thoroughly read up on the stuff I told you about and then let me know and I will be happy to check it out."
This is when rudeness, taunt, and judgment started.
I didn't debate with you. I was answering the taunts that AKA Winston presented me. I did tell him to check my forum and debate me there instead of here. He is the one you should use this kind of wordings and attitudes to talk to, not me.
"eg lead-lead, uranium-lead. Radiometric methods can be cross-checked by numerous other methods eg reversals of Earth's field recorded in the sea floor; the time taken for Earth to move over volcanic hot-spots etc. Even dating from tree rings, lake sediment layers, ice layers in Antartica are enough to discredit the biblical-literist claims that Earth is less than 10,000 years old."
Basically, you just gave me a bunch of jargon and terminology. What are they supposed to prove? And how?
I can also give you a bunch of formula, methodologies, raw data, and concepts and all the fancy names. And then after all the jargon and terms I could have said, "so basically you are misinformed and they disproved what you believe, and because I have read stuff you didn't. I have this degree so I know my stuff and you don't."
But I wouldn't do that because it is wrong and illogical.
[Your friend sounds like he has an Intelligent Design stance (a weak argument by creationists - if it's complex then someone must have made it).]
Baileybear,
The amusing aspect is that the basic claim of ID is in itself an example of "begging the question" (circular logic).
Here is an ID-like fallacious argument that begs the question that DNA is too complex to have been formed naturally so must have been designed.
1) DNA is not merely a molecule with a pattern; it is a code ... and an information storage mechanism.
2) All codes are created by a conscious mind; there is no natural process known to science that creates coded information.
3) Therefore DNA was designed by a mind.
@Bailey
Check this out:
Fallacy of radioactive-dating:
http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/am/v1/n1/
and quote "There is no archeological evidence that Jesus even existed. The four books of the gospel were written from hearsay many decades after Jesus was supposed to have lived -"
You may want to check out http://www.mtio.com/articles/aissar29.htm for archeological evidence for Jesus.
The integrity of the New Testament text is very strong, see
I started out feeling a lot of empathy for you but after reading your whole article and then down thru the comments it appears to me you are strongly bent on destroying faith in God, faith in Jesus and faith in the Bible. I noticed you did not mention Jesus once in your article. It is quite possible neither you nor the so called "christians" you refer to have ever actually met with Jesus in person. Until we meet with Him personally and for real and experience His love and Spirit the type of problems you talk about will always happen. That's why Jesus said to all the fakes "depart from me, I never knew you" when they said Lord Lord did we not do this in your name etc. Unfortunately "christian" means little these days. Any person can call themself a christian and do so but I call myself a believer in my Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. I speak of my Jesus every day and we commune together. I distrust those who say they are christians yet rarely want to talk about Jesus or mention His Name. Yes I have been burned and so have many by other so called believers. I think it is part of our walk with the Lord Jesus. In the end we are to forgive as we are forgiven. THis is not easy. I have found only God's grace in me can give me the strength and ability to forgive what I need to forgive. It means, in the end admitting to myself and God that I can't do it and asking Him to do it thru me or for me and hay presto, guess what, He does! That is a miracle for me, then I am free and it feels great. Because unforgiveness is a huge burden, an anchor around my soul and heart and life and spirit. It destroys me, and I can't enjoy life freely. P.S. sorry I should add that also I have learned to watch out for those "christians" that go round hurting and taking, it's happened to me too - they think they are safe in God's forgiveness that they can hurt others and God will forgive them, also they think they can get away with doing very little positively to promote love and peace, Jesus warned they will die on the vine if they continue to harden their heart , that's in John 15, don't worry they don't fool God and neither do you by the way hahaha, none of us can fool God. Hmm funny isn't it, I wonder if you think about it how foolish it is that we should presume to deny His being if He is real, like if I decided that you are not real or don't exist just because I can't touch you, in reality to me you are only words on a screen, a little like in reality to you the Bible is only words in a book?? Regards, Simon
Kudos! Good hub. Very brave, well-written, and time-consuming, I bet...and INFORMATIVE!!! Thank you for writing such a good piece on a journey you took which opened your mind and heart, and tore you away from depths of society. Whether you believe in a God or not, your experiences, findings, and interpretations lead you to trust your senses more than other people's opinion. That is very brave of you and very self-loving! I hope you find as much meaning as you seek. "And the Lord shall be with you" :)
Saikit - you're continuing to feel insulted by me when it was not my intention to insult you; you accused me of calling you a baby - I didn't. You dismissed scientific terminology relating to evolution because you didn't understand it, yet continue to debate. There is nothing to stop you looking at evolution properly (without creationist bias) - there are plenty of books on the subject, it doesn't require a degree.
I looked up your first link. It appears Dr Snell, the creationist geologist leads a double life - consulting & quoting age in millions of years; then writing for a creationist magazine and quoting in thousands of years. Who is he misleading? http://www.noanswersingenesis.org.au/realsnelling.
I already said I don't want to debate here - go to the forums if you want to debate - beware though, they will skin you alive if you don't know your stuff.
Simon - it is regretful you completely missed the point of my article. I am a skeptic, not a cynic - do you really think I have so much influence that I could destroy belief? If I make people question their beliefs, and they do some research and still decide they believe, good for them.
I skimmed through my article and saw Jesus mentioned at least 3 times - it appears you saw what you wanted to see.
About 4 christians have accused me of not being a "real christian". It seems christians can't understand why someone would leave. The christians on the forum did concede that they can't see God or hear him audibly - it is a "feeling" and believing in something they can't see.
AKA - good summary - I was sold the ID concept when I was a christian - I didn't question my beliefs back then - I naively trusted it was all true.
Sandie - thank you for your encouragement and for seeing this hub in the way I intended it, not as an attempt to "destroy faith"
I'm 75 and like Baileybear I have lived with Aspergers Syndrome (but didn't know that's what it was until a couple of years ago - self diagnosis).
I can't remember a time when I didn't believe in God but I can relate to so much of what has been written here. I walked away from the Anglican Church in the late 1960's because of what I saw as a lack of 'radical' Christianity. About 8 years later I was involved with a Sabbath keeping church (for some 20 years)that has in the past not unreasonably been referred to as both a cult and a sect. It was in 1995 that this church announced that much of its teachings were misguided. I was forced to reconsider just about everything I had ever believed. I am not a natural scholar but I had plenty of time (I was no longer employed). It was in 1998 that I suddenly had this feeling of FREEDOM AND LIBERATION FROM THE SLAVERY OF LEGALISM. It was in 2003 that I started to become aware of what was then being referred to as "Out of Church Christians" - the emerging / emergent / house church movements.
It must have been in 2005 that I began to realise that my faith was based almost entirely on HEAD KNOWLEDGE and almost no HEART AWARENESS.
To cut a very long story short I began to realise that there is an enormous difference between the Christian RELIGION and the Christian FAITH. If someone were to ask me now if I was a Christian I would be tempted to ask them to define what they think of as a Christian so that I know where they are coming from.
I've recently put together a lot of my thoughts on a blog. I've just loaded a hub entitled "Christendom" (taken from my blog) - http://hubpages.com/hub/Christendom?done - that is quite controversial.
When I look back I realise that I have been asking some awkward questions for more than 60 years.
As a result of the changes in 1995 my daughter and her husband are now understandably atheists. I find it sad that this means that I sometimes have to be careful what I say, but I don't have any fears for their ultimate future because I just do not accept any of the teachings about hell - and in many Christian eyes that means I am a heretic!
I'm a new boy here - I've experienced plenty of abuse from fundamentalist Christians on blogs and forums over the years and I'm no longer interested in arguing. As I've said on my blog, I now have a faith that I do not have to defend - but I'm always happy to share thoughts with anyone on a journey of discovery - by sharing many of the questions that I have considered (in a non-academic way) over the last 50 plus years.
I don't know how interested anyone might be - and whether I should create hubs for some of the material on my blog - any thoughts would be appreciated.
Welcome to hubpages, Old Pete. It certainly seems like a variety of people that believe in God - many take the bible literally, some don't; some believe in an ancient Earth, many don't; some believe in evolution, many don't, some are open-minded, many are not. And there's all these squabbles about who is a "real" christian etc.
Good on you for finding your own answers
You are experiencing those things because maybe before you are just a christian by "psychology". There is a big difference being a christian as a "religion" and a christian by "heart" which means walking with Jesus and living in holinees. This is the mystery of life, though we can't see Him but we can feel Him by seeking Him and having an intimacy with Him. I love my life now in His presence...I will walk by FAITH and not by SIGHT!!
Hello. I did not finish reading everything the same I did not finished reading comments. I would like to say that God is real and He never forsake anyone. You have right to believe what you want but not all right is good. God will protect even you decided it other way. Sorry about church people do not have understanding and are trained to deal with difficult problems. I was an atheist and I am a believer. God healed me from two different cancer one metastatic and I give Him glory.
This is an error to say about the sun and earth. Bible said it right that earth is round but science was wrong as well as church which adopted it.
I did have case of deliverance from multi personality problem. I described it in one hub.
I feel bad you are and were hurt.
hanbergs - some christians that have never met me have assumed I was never a "real" christian in the first place. I believed and "walked by faith and not by sight". My son believes in the tooth fairy - his belief is real. Does that make the tooth fairy real? It was (incorrectly) thought in ancient times that the heart was where feeling originate. Christians still refer to the heart and a "feeling" that God exists.
You believe God healed you from your illnesses, which gives you reason to believe. I was never healed by God, nor have I seen anyone else healed by God. You say church was right about Earth being round? I've seen the bible verse "circle of the earth" being twisted (but circles are still flat). And why would church adopt what science says if they believe the bible is right? And why did early scientists get tortured and burnt at the stake for saying the earth was not flat?
I am sorry you were so metaphorically burned by so many. Truly. Christ's body so often moves in flesh only, no spirit; solitary intellectualism, no heart or humility.
Knowledge is cold, but love edifies.
When I walked away for a bit, He loved me back in through His relationship with me, not thru people. Love you, sister.
I deeply apologize for all the idiots, zealots, legalists, and insecure Christians who didn't have the decency to give you love and compassion. I applaud your strength to carry though until you found an answer for you and you child - a mother's love is the greatest thing on earth. But if you can think about it one more time, leave the church and the hypocrites and the fools behind, and just seek God the Father face to face on your own terms. You've certainly found the worst of the lot, but we aren't all like the ones you've experienced - maybe you can give a chance to someone who can be a friend without judgement, I promise we are out here, hoping for a chance. Signed - a Christian with a heavy heart.
Mr Hunter & DavePrice - thank you for commenting. I imagined many christians must be saddened and/or irritated by the zealots and legalists that turn people off God.
Baileybear. Now you are included in my prayer and love.
Please remove my comment I put it down previously. I do not need offensive hateful talk as you see one above (by fatfist). Being smart does not mean being wise. Thanks.
Vladimir - I removed fatfist's comment. I do not want people that leave comments to be attacked by others. This hub stirs up a lot of emotion in people, and there have been arguments between people leaving comments (which I don't want - debates can go to the forum)
Hi, I enjoyed this Hub very much. It was candid and complete. You raised some good objections and there are some plausible rebuttles, but like you, all I got from mainstream Christianity was the pat answers .. "God had a plan, ya just gotta faith" and so on. Let me begin by saying that I've always believed in God, but have always had a battle between my intellect and my faith that couldn't be resolved by the rosie cheeked pastors with soft hands, so I began a journey into Theology looking for my own answers. The intellect and the faith haven't come to a complete peace, but they're starting to become friends.
Getting to the point, I've done several pieces on religious topics, but I've never put myself out there all the way. I'm wanting to do a series of hubs in a dialog form. You seem to be what I've been looking for. I'd like to work out something withs links or what ever. I'm not talking about a debate. I'm a monster in that. I'm talking about a dialog between hub buds. You the skeptic, and me .... the uhhhh .. not so skeptical? Anyway, if you'd be interested in doing this, I promise not to give you cheap answers. I can't prove The God of the Bible, but I can give you reasonable things that will make at least some intellectual sense.
Don't let the No Pants thing scare you. I'm not a perv, but I DO enjoy a godd gimmick. (laughing)
jim
Hi
I have only found out about this hub page today and I am impressed by what I read.
I started writing on the web a while back and last year went on to Wordpress.com and eventually on to .org.
I understand what you went through.
I feel we all have experiences of rejection or acceptance regarding our faith. I was in a convent from where I was "sent home". A real blow to anyone's faith as the reasons given were all lies. That is until finally a beautiful person told me that it was becasuse I was too open minded.
I queried God and my faith and finally worked out that both were intact and had grown.
That's why I started writing
Wishing you well
Vicval
TheMan - yes, I'm a thinker and just being told to believe something that doesn't add up is not being true to myself. I'm amazed at how many christians have left comments indicating they understand where I'm coming from.
Not all are open-minded - I've received an emotional rant from family accusing me of having a "stinking mind" and other rubbish. Sigh
Vicval - I'm too open-minded to adopt the close-minded cultish views that I was exposed to. Good for you for finding what works for you.
Wow - Good hub Baileybear - and good for you for keeping your temper. I invariable end up making fun of people like Saikit and Vladimir, because it is not possible to have a reasonable conversation with some one who doggedly repeats inaccurate nonsense to back up their irrational belief system.
I am seeing more of that type of thing as the ability to deny scientific knowledge is becoming harder to do and clearly contradicts some of the bible's inaccuracies. A circle is a two dimensional shape - end of discussion. The bible therefore says the earth is flat as all circles are flat. It doesn't call it an oblate spheroid, which is what it is - it doesn't even suggest it is "round like an apple," or anything (but look out for edited versions in the future). This is enough to prove the bible is nonsense. Either this god person is total moron incapable of describing the shape of its own creation - or - more logically - it does not exist. LOL PROOF!!!
Mark, my mother spouted a pile of nonsense as upset with my latest hubs. I didn't bother arguing with her, as futile. I deleted approx 30 comments because people were fighting with each other (like the forums - written a hub about those too). This hub has been controversial but has been my fastest read hub - should be my top hub in a few days time
I genuinely do not understand that. I have know father disown son for not believing The Nonsense. I do not understand why peopel like SpiderPam are so aggressive either. All they do is convince me I am right to discard the idea of a belief in a god.
I don't believe the same nonsense they wash their brain out with for many reasons - none of which is that I do not understand it or am close minded. I have studied it - in depth. I know the origins and what I consider to be the original intentions of the writers, but the dishonest way it is propagated goes beyond sensible.
And the amount of them claiming to have a "personal relationship" is a joke. I have personal relationships with lots of dead and imaginary people. I often ask myself "What would Leonardo da Vinci do"?
I find it to be a useful tool, especially as I work online and do not get to see many people all day long. But and this is a BIG BUT - I am not going to try and persuade anyone the answers I get are anything other than from my own subconscious.
Mark - I find this kind of behaviour (blaming me, trying to make me feel guilty, saying my mind is "stinking" and accusing me of being bitter and unforgiving etc etc - but we still love you) is common with christians - it seems very cult-like. Someone in the forums refered to the bible as a cult-novel. Can see what they mean.
A lot of uneducated, naive people trust the bible. I do know a few very bright people that are christians that don't dare question their faith - beliefs are very powerful things
Yes - they are. Basing your life on an imaginary friend is a dangerous precedent and I genuinely think this is damaging to yourself and our society. I am watching tensions rising between the Muslims and The Christians here in Europe and I fear for my personal safety.
The fact that your family holds their belief in god as being more important than their relationship with you speaks volumes and is more proof to me that it is "Not A Good Thing."
Mark - very true. People are more loyal to their invisible god that they cannot prove than to their own families.
I feel, don't we all, and what I know is this;
We are all born with our own unique built in guide to a joyful life.
We need not be told what is right and wrong for US as our inner knowing does that for us.
I adore peace, Peace is my guide in life! When I feel at ease and good about something, or at PEACE, I know I'm on the right path in life.
When I don't have peace about anything or feel a inner sense of warning I avoid it moving away from it, rejecting it and moving back toward and keeping to what brings me peace.
It's really simple when you think about it, YOU THINK about it and do what's right for you.
People who are driven to control others are no more than wrong. We are all whole, perfect, strong, powerful, loving, harmonious and happy in our own being and need not be controlled by anyone.
I will imagine you knowing peace and being radically and abundantly blessed in all areas of life.
Foot note, I spent my entire life in the church, just finished a term as Deacon and after this journey and my term was over I walked away from the church and have not been back.
I am enlightened! Not what the church would have you believe you could be and yet I have found it, am Free and a better person for it!
Peace and Love, Katie
Some people worship to their invisible brain. This is why we have so much troubles.
Trust in invisible God is safe since it's promoting goodness. There are 2.2 billion Christians and growing. Do you think all are nuts?
LOL - Pam - I will do as I please. Behavior by peopel such as yourself is one of the reasons many turn away from the idea of a god, so keep up the good work. Seriously - if it creates people who behave as you do, why would anyone consider it as reasonable. Interesting use of the word "lost," though. LOL I don't want to turn this into a fight, but - once again - thanks.
VU - yes. Indoctrinating children is an issue - I agree. It should be illegal the same as physical child abuse is.
Ex-Christian, I am so sorry that you gave up on God. A lot of christians are unfeeling, and self-righteous. I am a christian, but I ask God to help me to be merciful and kind and compassionate when I talk to people. You cannot hold God responsible for what people say, your focus must be God and no one or nothing else. Read the scripture in the Bible, Matthew 10:34-36 and it reads, " Think not that I(Jesus) am come to send peace on earth, I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father. And a man's foe shall be they of his own household." So you see people are going to have all kinds of ideas of how Jesus wants you to live, but, your focus must be on Christ, and you do that by studying His Word, which is the Bible. Sister come back to Jesus, all christians are not alike. There are some that feel and believe as I do. I am concerned for you, because you were hurt, and I being a true christian I feel that hurt. Come back, God Bless You.
Bailey. I've never seen a person more in need of a good starightening out talk. Perhaps that's why I was guided to your hub today. I read most of it and skimmed the rest. I was hoping you've discovered the same the I did after going through the same things you did. I don't have too much time to write right now but I think I can help you to believe in God again and I can tell you desperately want to.
You're right to turn your back on the "God" we've all been taught to beleive in growing up. You're right to question all these "little bugs" in what the bible says. You're wrong to deny the existence of God however.
I have something important to tell you. Very important. If you listen and hear the truth and meaning behind these words then you will no longer have any depression or health problems and you will actually "know" God.
Since I'm out of time now I urge you to read my hubs on religion and philosophy and on the work of Neville Goddard starting with this one. http://hubpages.com/hub/Five-Words-Which-Unlock-th
For now remember this. Nothing is out there. Everything (including me) exists with in you. There is only one consciousness in this world and that is yours...and it is mine... and that is God's.
Hi Baileybear, just wanted to say that was very interesting to read. I don’t want to make any personal judgments’ against you but, I consider myself Christian & I do believe there is a God from my own personal experiences. I grew up in a religious organization and, as a result as an adult I've had nothing to do with any organized religion. However, my personal faith & belief is stronger now as I feel religion and God have little to do with one another. Many of your comments were pointed at “Christians in the church", which led me to believe your questions & problems are with people. Also, I was looking for references to support your beliefs & honestly the links left me more confused. Seemed like the websites were like organized religion in how one person compiles their own ideas and pushes others to "believe" too. I do not think badly of you I think it took courage to post something of this sort, also the fact that you question so much just means you’re looking for answers. So I truly hope you find what you’re searching for. Best to you!!!!
Great read, Baileybear. I'm in the same boat as you, though I got there by a different route. Raised in an Assemblies of God culture with preacher and missionary parents, Christian high school and college, I had the Bible beat into my head since I could talk. I was also turned off by the vast quantity of judgmentalism, legalism, and hypocrisy in the Church; but I'd say the final undoing was just an extensive study into the Bible's and Christianity's origins. The sheer amount of contradictions, absurdities, plagiarism, and atrocity passed off as "goodness" persuaded that no Good Creator of the universe had anything to do with the formation of the Bible; and that the primary tenets of Christianity were just old rehashing of ancient pagan religions.
We were all born agnostics, and I think that is the best and most honest route to take. No matter how strongly one holds their beliefs, it's still nothing more than their best guess...meaning everyone is essentially agnostic whether they admit it or not. Admitting it just means you're braver and more honest than they are.
Personally, I like to believe there is a God - though I don't see any evidence for one. (and anyone who claims they have evidence is just succumbing to the Unexplained Mystery argument: "I don't know for sure what just happened so it must be 'God.'") If nothing else, this article is a testament to the resiliency of the human spirit, able to overcome impossible difficulties without any appeals to, or help from, any imagined deities.
Kudos.
All these "Christians" trying to stuff their crap down your throat becausei ou do not beleive the same thigns they do. Gag me with a spoon!!!
All those Christians who think about that Earth being round and such you forgot one very big incidence that happened to Gallileo who proved the Earth was round, but yet Christians wanted him dead for blaphemy when they KNEW the Earth was Flat. Go ahead and look him up and what the church has to do with his execution that was thwarted. In Revelations (which is a farce) it goes to tell that Jesus will come in the sky and everyone will see him. NOT! Revelations was written when they thought the Earth was Flat an that would make sense, but it isn't flat and so that book was written for that generation not ours. That is just one thing that doesn't agree with today that is in the Bible.
God isn't a person and it isn't a HE. You all blame God for destruction and then you go and also blame Satan for the same kinds of destruction. Wow with all the destruction going on by two Super Beings it is a wonder this earth still exists, huh. Now while things are falling apart has any one of you actually seen God Or Satan hanging around. What do they look like? Anyone know?
BailyBear you stick to your beliefs. If everyone was to do and be and look the same don't you think that we would all be that way, but we aren't and I surely don't want to be the same as SpiderPam or Val or anyone else that spouts gibberish as a means to control you or I or others who don't see things the way that they have been brainwashed to see.
Hold On Tight!!!
Wow, BB. You've certainly hit some nerves with your experience and views. I give you great credit for all the research and thinking you've done. This was NOT a decision you made lightly! My own experience is in the opposite direction - I was raised Catholic, then rebelled for over 30 years, and have recently found an Episcopal church that's a nearly perfect match for me and my beliefs. I don't think anyone's beliefs, nonbeliefs, or "maybe" beliefs about God are superior to anyone else's. I am sorry you had to be on the receiving end of so much negativity from Christians and everyone else. Don't give up on your quest. Please know that some Christians just want love and peace and respect among people. Thank you for sharing your story.
(I am watching tensions rising between the Muslims and The Christians here in Europe and I fear for my personal safety)
Mark and Baileybear,
I understand this apprehension and it mirrors to a degree my own views. But the real enemy is ABSOLUTISM.
Once you break all these groups to their core, you find a belief in the absolute necessity of that belief - no room for doubt, second guessing, or reason and inquisitiveness.
The belief is ironclad - and dangerous.
It doesn't matter if you are trying instill democracy, socialism, communism, muslinism, or Christianity, if you act with conviction that your beliefs are the only beliefs and are absolute and inviolate, then your are evil.
I used to ignore the fundamental - until they started trying to affect politics and education. At that point I went on the offensive and am not very pleasant or cordial to these nutcases.
And frankly, I don't care if they are offended.
thanks for commenting - will be brief:
katie - glad I didn't go to bible college - or I'd be ex-christian, ex-wife, ex-pastor like that woman in the link;
vladimir - it's a fact that brains exist; unfortunately most people don't utilise them;
voice - last time I picked up the bible, I put it down in disgust - the violence, sexism etc; tall stories and contradictions - I'm concluding it's a work of fiction;
pkj - why do I need a god? no-one is agreement on who/what god is anyway
aimer - yes, I am looking for answers - I seek truth. Science makes a lot more sense to me than religion.
pay - yep, I can totally understand where you're coming from. Recently, I've been looking into history etc and am amazed at how religion has such a hold on people. I see you have written some hubs on this stuff, which I will check out. I'm open to the possibility of a god existing, but I have seen zero evidence (the subjective "feeling in the heart" is not evidence, and neither is a book that clams it was inspired). Do your family all still believe? Mine do, and of course think I am delusional/bitter/rotten etc (I've never been more clear-thinking in my life);
LadyG - Yep, there's plenty of rubbish spouted all right - it spews out of the mouth bypassing the brain! LOL;
embee - thank you for your kind words and having tolerance of other views;
AKA - yes, agree with you about absolutism - that's where the extremists that make wars come from; that's where people that disown their own family come from. Whether their rigid beliefs can be changed? - I doubt it
@ AKA Winston - I agree. Fundamental absolutism is the problem. But that is the root of religious beliefs. Here in Europe, religion remains as the only absolutism with any power. After two big wars, violent oppression by Communists and various other political systems, the Absolutism of apolitical party is gone - perhaps only temporarily, but religion remains as a rallying point against another group.
I was trying ti explain to one of our resident Muslims why I am offended by people who wear religious clothes.
Not because I am scared or closed minded or hate god - but because they identify themselves firstly as religious - and that is the first thing they want to tell me about themselves.
As soon as I see them - I know they have divided themselves away from me and want me to know it. This is most important to them. I am as scared by anyone who wears a uniform, because it says "You are not part of my club."
nice very
I do not believe you were attacked by Christians but by people who simply do not know. Listen, perhaps religion doesn't fit in the lives of many, but believing in some invisible means of support is life changing. You don't have to put a name to God or if there is a God he doesn't have a name...it's just the air you breathe, the life you have, a the good fortune you have to share your joy with others whether you believe in anything at all...you don't need science to fill the mind with crap or proof or hypothesis or things beyond explanation...in the end if you feel whole, if you feel love and love and learn to be loved...that's all that matters
ntgome - being a thinker, I am fascinated with science, and I don't see how something that is built on evidence provides a lot of answers can be crap. I haven't seen any concrete evidence for the existence of god. I am loved by my husband and son - that is enough for me. When I believed I was loved by god when still single, I was desperately lonely - god is not enough.
(I am as scared by anyone who wears a uniform, because it says "You are not part of my club.")
(Whether their rigid beliefs can be changed? - I doubt it)
Mark and Baileybear,
Mark,
You point is dead on. I even understand (urban legend?) that police candidates are disallowed if they score too high on intelligent tests. My own father was very much a religious nut and my brother is an "Army religious nut", that is a chaplain in the U.S. Army, retired. There is also the ego gratification of "you are not with me so you are lesser than me" to deal with in these types of people.
Baileybear,
You hit it on the head - I am personally aware of how difficult it is to challenge these ingrained beliefs as to the serious believer his religion is part of his identity, his ego.
It was a real shock to me when I hit public schools and found out that not everyone was banned from movies, dancing, lipstick, etc. When you are 7 and have to tell the teacher in front of 20+ other kids you can't learn the Virginia Reel with them as a class because "It's against my religion to dance," the scars from the shame of being an outsider and oddball are brutal. You either finally break away from the religious groups or wrap yourself up in it like a suit of armor to prevent any more hurt.
AKA - the rules that arise from all this legalistic thinking is ridulous. I was a bit of a rules follower as a child, so even though something inside said "that's not fair", I obeyed. My son is a bit of a rules follower too, but he will let us know on no uncertain terms if he thinks he is being unfair.
So much gets judged as good or evil - the stain-glass hanging I designed and had made was "evil", the horoscope book I commented on because it had my birth month on it was "evil", when I wanted to dress up as a witch for a book character day at school, I was not allowed because it was "evil" (and it was "evil" for me to even make such a request).
I was not allowed to go to a boy's house or to the movies with a boy because they would "take advantage of me." I came to think that maybe sex was dirty and sinful - even to feel attracted to someone inflicted guilt.
Most music was "evil" (my husband recalls a teenager that destroyed his rare record collection after converting to christianity). Buying a lotto ticket or raffle ticket "was gambling".
Making a criticism about someone that was mean to me was the same as "crucifying them."
Yoga "was evil". Relaxation exercises were "evil" (I was taught some when I suffered burnout - I experienced real conflict about trying it).
Martial arts were "evil" (my son and I are currently learning TaeKwonDo and find the values there much better than any religion).
I could go on and on. Such a controlling cult.
I love it. Any time someone chooses to logically sift through the information we are given as "fact," is a very brave move. I chose to follow the possibly mythical teachings of Jesus Christ and consider myself a Christian, albeit one who believes nothing that has been written and edited in the bible. Even if it is a fictional account, the life of Jesus is a good one to tailor your life after in the same way that the life of Forrest Gump is a good one to follow.
hermfry - good for you. I see the bible as a piece of literature with many allegories/parables, and shouldn't be taken literally. I actually like the character of Jesus - not afraid to speak his mind, despised hypocrisy, compassion for the "rejects"
Baileybear,
I have seen it in many comments that many evangelical Protestant Christians do not seem to grasp what is meant by "religious abuse", thinking along the lines of physical or sexual abuse such as the Catholic Church is dealing with now.
But that is not the abuse the pschologists talk about - that form of abuse comes from the religion itself, the instilling of fear, guilt, and shame at ages where no challenge of authority (parental or other grown-ups) is allowed, of being taught of being "less than" because of original sin and thus spending a lifetime trying to "be good" when it is impossible as a human not to screw up.
The list is endless - the abuse is strictly psychological and is as devastating as any other childhood abuse.
The only escape is an entire destruction of the system that your ego is based upon, which means temporarily becoming a non-person, dead in a sense, before being resurrected as a rational and free ego with no need for a god or others telling you how to think or to live you life.
mfry418
(Even if it is a fictional account, the life of Jesus is a good one to tailor your life after in the same way that the life of Forrest Gump is a good one to follow.)
When I lived in Las Vegas I had a good friend tell me that a 12-step program was a great way to live your life even if you had no problems - turns out I think he is right except after some amount of time following the guidelines I discovered that the attributes we credit to god are manmade, thus can be changed, and thus god is simply a manmade creation. (Curious can see my hub The Definitive God for more.) We can follow the 12 steps without a god if we truly understand the nature of it.
The bottom line of a higher power is not that it is real, but to force yourself to realize you are not special, that you are simply another grain of sand on the beach, and by being nothing but human like everyone else, you are free to make mistakes, as is the guy or girl next to you.
I think your problems are not with Christianity, they are with idiots. I don't know a single Christian who would behave as your "friends" and associates did, and I'm frankly disgusted by their behaviour.
I would be wary of reading too much into Dawkins and his advocates: it can't have escaped your attention the similarities between those people and the craziness of evangelical zealots, two sides of the same coin.
If you are going to be an atheist, do what most atheists do and don't believe in God, and try live a good, happy life. Don't get worked up about it, it'll make you unhappy.
If you ever consider faith again as an option, and I don't blame you at all if you don't given your experiences, you may consider there are many less judgemental Christian denominations that won't give you anything but love and support.
AKA - yes, it equates to abuse and that is one of the reasons I have written, so that people may see that this behaviour is abuse. I am not feeling bitter, angry etc (although some individuals have accused me of being bitter, angry, unforgiving etc).
Anglachelis - I haven't read any of Dawkin's books - I sensed he hated religion "religiously". Good advice - just be a human being etc
I admire your honesty and transparency. I also agree with you on the hypocrisy and the judgmental approach the christian church has taken on. Reminds me of the pharisees only focused on people and what they deem to be wrong. At times its like their way of channeling their own short-comings. Whether or not the christian Bible is a true depiction as the Word of God, one thing is made clear; no one can successfully abide by every instruction therefore no one has room to point out fault or question another. Wheres the "grace"?
Thanks, Michael. Well said. I didn't write this hub out of bitterness, unforgiveness, hate etc. I wrote it to show how many people end up as "casulties". A few judge me further by saying I must be unforgiving or was never a christian in first place etc. I am grateful for the kind comments (the majority)
I am so sorry for what religion has done to you and many others.
It was religion that killed Jesus as well.
BUT HE lives! He is there if you ever, ever, ever, want to talk to Him.
BL Tween - Jesus/God never talked back to me & I doubt the existence of any god
Belief in God is insane only to those who don't have the answers and to those who tried in their own strength to adhere to a bunch of rules. It is not man who shapes the believer, God said, "He will be a father and we shall be his sons/daughters". This puts God in the drivers seat. How do we know what God likes, read the word, find out. Do we fail at a certain thing? fall on God for strength, desire a thing to go and by his power he does the tweaking according to our willingness. God is not forceful at all but is gentle in all his ways. The church you attended may have been quite zealous to clean you up but that is not God doing the work that is man and man has no business dictating what a growing child in Gods care should be doing. Still smoking, God will deal with it, no worries. This is the difference between religiosity and the spirit walk jesus ushered in. God is always there, willing to listen and to act but never to force or even to threaten with hellfire.
hanging out - I did believe in God and I did read the bible more than any other book at one stage. I found it hard to see God as a father/parent, as I felt like I got zero support etc. I never smoked, did drugs etc - I was a "good" girl. I've never seen any evidence of God helping me or caring for me (like a parent would)
WOW!! Amen, sister! You have given voice to opinions I've held for many years. "Man created god in his image" instead of the other way around. Yes, indeed! Those who preach and condemn are hypocrites, as none of us are perfect. Those who point fingers are tyring to direct attention away from themselves, and forget that a finger pointed at someone else leaves 3 fingers pointed back at them!
Yes, the Bible IS 'holey' ..note spelling..as in 'full of holes.' Why? Because, no matter what you believe about its authorship, it is incomplete. There are more books that have been deleted than currently exist--the Council of Nicea in about 300 CE saw to that. Ever hear of the book of Massachai? No? Most have not. It is one of the deleted texts. Its subject matter? How to murder, pillage, torture and so forth "in the name of god" to force conversion. It is the root of our word, 'massacre.'
If god is our "father," and we are ALL his children...he sure treats us badly. All the excuses and explanations for bad stuff happening just doesn't fly with me. Any so-called omnipotent being should be able to prevent crap like stray bullets killing 2-year olds (or anyone else), and horrible fatal disease should never be inflicted on children. If WE were to treat OUR children the way this so-called 'god/loving/merciful father' treats us, we'd be in jail in a heartbeat for child abuse! If that's 'love,' I'd hate to see even mild dislike!
Who's to say our whole planet is not an experiment seeded by aliens, for that matter? No, I do not believe in religion--it has been the source of more wars and strife than any other thing in history. At this point, I'm more pagan/wiccan in my views--respect mother Earth, and treat her kindly for she is the only home we have. Not worship--respect and careful husbandry of the planet, that's all.
Notice I do not capitalize 'god.' There have been many beliefs in many gods over the centuries. I view it as a job description, and not a name.
Much of what you say, I have also either arrived at on my own independent thinking, or learned from my husband...who, incidentally, is a licensed minister...he does not practice because after learning what he did in seminary, he could not preach what he'd been taught and keep his own high ethical standards intact.
I could go on and on, but that would be writing a whole other hub in your comments...Suffice it to say, I agree with you, and brava on having the guts to put this out there!
You asked "pkj - why do I need a god? no-one is agreement on who/what god is anyway"
Yes the word god is confusing isn't it. Wouldn't you like to know the truth behind your existence? Who you are? Why your here? I continue to call this truth God because it is the "god" spoken of in scripture. Most people's concept of God is completely wrong. I understand your confusion. Its OK. You are denying a false god. I thought you might want to know the truth about "God" so I told you. I urge you to accept my words for they will bring you the happiness and comfort you are crying out for.
Dzy - I'm sure you could write some great hubs with your observations. I doubt many christians realise their bible didn't always exist as a set of 66 books (or more or less depending if catholic, muslim etc).
The "proof" for god is bible which is held up as having no errors - which is totally untrue. The bible falls apart, so does god.
pjk - I took a quick look at your hub - I find metaphysics to be just as confusing
i'm sorry to read about what has happened to you but at the same time you've shown what religion is all about. i noticed these same kinds of occurences throughout my life. belief in god is about fear and convienience. how else can many people justify the wrongs they commit, lose the fear of dying and blame the devil when they do bad things. a person doesn't need god or religion of any kind to enjoy life but rather they should realise that life is full of ups and downs and that's just how it is. just remember that you can live your life how you see fit and let religion be just another story told.
I agree, nightworks. Reality is, life can be unfair - some people get a cruisey ride; others struggle; most people have ups and downs - it's not god, the devil & other etc. I really don't see the difference btwn religion and superstition
Wow! I should write a more thorough explanation of why I walked away from Christianity. Maybe I can set a new comments record.
I'm with you. Many of my reasons for rejecting Christianity are similar to yours. Christianity, and revealed religion in general, has a serious problem with mental illness. Problems with the brain do not reconcile well with a world view in which humans are judged for their choices. If our ability to choose is hampered by mental health issues, then can we be held completely responsible for our actions and our experience of the world? As you say, many Christians handle this problem by not thinking about it (or blaming demons).
I also agree that people who hold on to faith in the Bible read it selectively, and many believers don't read it much at all. As you may know, in a recent survey, atheists and agnostics scored highest of anyone on a religion test. They are probably the ones who, in general, think the most deeply about these issues. They are also willing to look at more options than just the one that they were born into.
Ultimately, people gravitate toward belief systems that fill their needs, and having a rational worldview is not near the top of the list of needs. We are not necessarily a rational species. We are biological organisms complete with all sorts of limitations.
Thanks for your honesty. Anyone who attacks you for honestly and clearly explaining your worldview is not worth worrying about.
Bailey Bear,
An excellent, and courageous, hub. I can't say I've had anywhere near these kinds of traumatic experiences, but what is encouraging is that reason and logic won out in the end for you. There was a clear undercurrent of subjective experiences, such as your interactions with friends and family, but I also enjoyed that so much of your thinking in the article was influenced by simple logic and science.
I suspect that there are countless people raised in religious cultures around the world that believe these things because they were similarly raised in that tradition. If only they were a bit more enthusiastic with their critical thinking, as you have been, we might just have a more peaceful and rational world.
The simplest questions are always the best questions. The religious can never answer them. That is why religion is dying in the rich world, where it is not already dead.
Stephen Hawking indicated recently that science will ultimately be victorious over religion because it just simply works. I think he's right--and secular science has been winning for the last 500 years. Your story is a great testament to that.
Freeway Flyer - please do write a hub - I like reading about other people's experiences. When I was suffering from mental illness (depression and anxiety from my undiagnosed autoimmune condition and food allergies), I couldn't think clearly or stand up for myself - I was very vulnerable.
secularist - My 7 year old son (who is very outspoken and logical, typical of many children with Asperger's Syndrome) got kicked out of religious ed at school, for announcing loudly, "God's not real!". He was atheist before I was. About a year ago, he asked if I believed in god - I said I used to, but was unsure, as god didn't seem to help. He said, "I don't believe in god because I can't see him. God didn't make the earth and us - we are made of stardust." I asked how he came to that conclusion, and he said from reading books about space. His grandmother would have a hard time convincing him otherwise - LOL!
I actually did write a hub about the process of becoming a Unitarian Universalist. I did not go into as much detail, however, in explaining my problems with Christianity. Here it is:
Thank you for this post. While I am a Christ-follower, not a "religious" person, I respect this because you have done your research. I was not raised Christian and got here by my own investigation, research, and life experiences. Ironically, quite the opposite of your experience. :) I guess I was "born-again" about 8 years ago.
Many non-Christians and Christians alike do NOT do the research and have "blind" faith in their beliefs (Christian or Athiest) based on many things, but not investigation. Some of it is bad life experiences, some of it is how they were raised to believe. But, when people investigate on either side, I respect that. As much as the things that have happened to you sadden me, I will not preach here, because clearly you have heard it all before! :) S0, I will just say continue on your journey, never stop asking questions or seeking, and God bless you (sorry, you are still His child) :)
Peace!!
FF - will check it out
Julie - I appreciate your refraining from preaching (yes, I've heard it all!). I respect people like you that can see how it is for someone else - that is true empathy
I can relate to a lot of things in this Hub. I also know where you're coming from.
thanks, Michelle.
congratulations on your conversion to reason! You have obviously had some hard times and that is sad, but it is good to hear that science has provided some of the help that religion couldn't offer you.
And I think it is interesting how you talk about christians being judgemental - that has often been my experience too. I find it strange that people from a religion where 'don't judge or you will be judged yourself' is one of the big tenents of their belief seem to be amongst the most judgemental people around.
kephrira - thankyou. Yes, I did have some hard times, but guess that was the wake-up call that I couldn't cling to some idealistic view I'd been spoon-fed.
Yes, I agree with comment about judgemental christians. I actually used to know some very nice christians though, and I think they would be nice people if they were any other religion, or no religion at all.
Baileybear, you have been through much and learned so much. I know you will have a much better life from now on. I was so happy the day I "discovered" there was no god! Such a HUGE weight lifted off my shoulders. I no longer had to "worship" the being who allowed, even encouraged, children to be abused and murdered. The god that allowed his own son/self to be tortured and killed. Wow. It was so liberating!
@ one of your commenters above {It is quite possible neither you nor the so called "christians" you refer to have ever actually met with Jesus in person. Until we meet with Him personally and for real and experience His love and Spirit the type of problems you talk about will always happen.}
Please take a photo of Jesus the next time you meet with him so we can all see what he looks like. Thank you. If you can't do that, then let us know what you are smoking so we can get some and meet Jesus too.
Yes, Austinstar, I'd like to know what Jesus looks like (the long brown hair version came from religious art). All those years I loved Jesus, he stayed invisible to me.
I'd been so indoctinated/controlled that I still can't say with confidence God doesn't exist. It's a scary process to let go of all the toxic christianity, but the more I do, the more liberating it is
I know. I wrote a hub to let people know it's ok to be an atheist, you won't miss out on heaven and you won't go to hell.
Yes, I read that one, Austinstar - lots of funny comments too
Good for you! There's so much persecution of atheists in this world. But it is possible to live a life of purpose without God!
Thanks Kate. Of course, the religionists will disagree with you :)
A brave and enlightened Hub! I've been around that "block" at least twice! LOL! I too have a struggle with God or the God concept which I wrote about here. I am always amazed at how the religionists (actually the Christians, other believers seem to be content to leave one alone) always try to tell one how much one is missing, that there must be something wrong with one, and then the big one, that hellfire awaits!
I'm definitely through with religion, though I have to say, like you, that the God issue is still an open question for me. Having said that I think it no longer is very important. I prefer to get on with living a life of purpose and contribution.
Thanks so much for sharing your interesting journey.
Love and peace
Tony
tony - I knew there were several christian denominations, and many thought the others had it all wrong, but now it seems some believe in hell & demons and others don't; some believe in evolution & others don't. The christians can't even agree!
I can really relate to your story. I had depression and I will never forget how hard it was to even get out of bed, yet I felt bad cause I couldn't read my bible. I had a group of 'friends' at the time in a prayer group that were right into the demon in everything thing. Nothing like someone starting to cast out demons you don't think you had! I had to have a really hard think about my own faith after reading the explainations you have for your spiritual encounters. Suppose I have seen to much though. You can't see the wind, but you can feel it, and see the trees moving.
The comments you get about not ever being a christian, and the blame I am sure they give to all those 'demons' is really not about you. I really think it is about those Christians feeling defensive about the fact that it is not the devils fault you left, but how badly you were treated. They are also defending their interpetation of the bible to try to make you fit when you would clearly challenge many Christians understanding.
I believe, as strongly as I believe in God, that I have a calling to teach/preach in a manner to 'clean up' the churches. The biggest problem I believe is demonstrated by your story, and that is the lack of love.
I have started teaching, but only a small group, and writing books I hope to publish. I would appreciate your permission to share your story if that's ok?
inseachoftruth - I figured in the forums you would understand where I'm coming from. I agree with your comments. Yes, you can share my story - if you are wanting to print it, add the link so they can find me on hubpages, or just include extracts with link. I've got some other hubs that might give you a bigger picture - about the pentecostal abuse - it's called Ex-christian - Throwing Out the Baby With the Bathwater and another on Treatment Resistant Depression. I've been interviewed by a chap in Ireland who is writing about those burnt by pentecostal christianity - he's putting several stories in anonymously. I'm happy to contribute to someone else's book.
That is great. I have almost finished a book aimed at generic christians at the moment, but have one in mind specific to Pentecostals. My husband was also burnt pretty bad and I can't even talk to him about church. The thing is I can't argue with him cause he is perfectly justified. I am glad others are fighting too. God willing I will make a difference. It is people like you that inspire me to keep going.
insearchof truth - Glad my writing has inspired you to keep going. It was too painful for many years for me to talk or even think about it. It was complicated because I was very ill for many years. Since feeling better (no thanks to god), I feel strong enough to write about it. I think there's a lot of wounded people out there.
Did you ever consider that if maybe perhaps there is a God, He did help you, by getting you away from the church....
LOL...if there is, it's not the one in the bible
Baileybear, I enjoyed reading your story. I grew up as a liberal Episcopalian, so I didn't get the strict teaching you did since you were little. My parents also were active in an international evangelical community, but they were much more liberal Episcopalians than evangelical.
At 14 y.o. I told my parents I wasn't going to church anymore. That didn't go over well. I argued that my older brother didn't have to go to church. So why should I? It's not fair. They resisted. I even got the "What will the neighbors think?" argument from my father. That inspired no fear and fell flat. I couldn't care less if the neighbors would be negatively judging me because I wasn't going to church. Finally I wore down my parents and got out of going to church.
I'm skipping ahead to the summer before my first year of college, when I was searching for "truth, meaning, and peace." Don't remember the segue between my being an angry critic of the church and my soul searching summer.
A few days before I was supposed to go to the Freshmen Orientation for college, I was up in the mountains near Keystone, Colorado with my older cousin, wife, and toddler and their Motorcross community.
To make a long story short, I ended up flying off a motorcross bike and landing on rocks. I had already decided I was finished riding for the day and taken off my helmet. At the last minute, I decided to ride the bike down the dirt road just one more time, and left my helmet behind. Anyway, the motorcycle accident led to a direct experience of God's presence.
I realize, Baileybear, you may believe that this couldn't have happened then or couldn't happen today. Which is fine cause I don't need you to believe it. Your not believing that this is possible doesn't take anything away from my knowing it happened and it being a very important event in my life story.
I'll skip ahead to nine months later, when I became a "born again Christian." Starting then, I was very active in the Navigators, a national evangelical campus group, for three years. When I exited from the Navigators I got the same reactions - concern for me, fear for me, that I was "losing my walk with the Lord" and going off in bad directions, and pressure not to do it. Definitely had some disillusionment and anger to work through. But unlike you, Baileybear, I got support from family and other long-term friends, so it wasn't as much a ripping apart and shunning that I imagine you experienced.
When I look back now on those 3 years as a Navigator, decades later, it's not with anger. More like amazement that I had been an evangelical back then and appreciation for the positive things about those three years. My soul journey continued and I've covered a lot of ground since leaving the Navs. But I'm thankful for those years. It served as a container for my developing a relationship with God and making that relationship central in my life. It reminds me of those structures put around young trees to help shape what direction they grow in.
And then, it became too restrictive for me. Many people experience the evangelical path as a good fit for them for the rest of their lives. They don't feel a need to leave. The support, nurture, and teachings continue to speak to them. But I wasn't one of those people and I did feel a need to leave. I've never regretted the choice to exit.
That's all for now. I invite you to reply.
Thanks.
saraperry - thank-you for sharing your very interesting story. Did you have a near-death-experience with your accident? I heard the testimony of a man that converted to christianity after a near-death-experience. I touched on this phenomena in my hub on death from an atheist's viewpoint.
I don't feel anger about my experiences. Just a little regret at how much of my life being other people's puppet & how religion divides families.
Very interesting ~ and sad. I have heard similar stories from others who have left the church ~ though I think that this kind of negative response is more commonplace in America than in Britain, where people tend to regard one's beliefs as a private matter.
I am an agnostic. It makes sense to me :)
And I agree that, if there is a God, then God is not as described in the Bible.
Trish, yes my story is fairly common. I'm not from America, but it sounds like there are plenty of religious nutters there, particularly in the bible belt.
I've made some comments about religion in the US on my hub, Darwin - the Man Who Killed God. Some American fanatical christians have called me Hitler - that's how extreme/distorted they are.
I think agnostic is the healthiest mindset - we can never be completely certain.
In agree, Baileybear :)
thanks, Trish
BB - well done for finding your own way and - from what I read in your hub - peace, love and happiness. You found all without the need to do the church run, acquiesce to the majority (that you were used to) or pound the streets, spreading the word.
Wow - that you can have all that without religion? How frightening huh?!
And all the comments. Indicative of how emotive a subject it is, how often and just how easily religion has caused so much conflict.
Here's hoping your life continues on as you wish it to, that your happiness with what you have continues exactly as you and your family deserve it to :)
frogdropping - yes, this topic stirs up a lot of emotion in people. My family aren't very happy about me writing this stuff.
I find it scary how much control people's belief in an invisible being has over their lives - they choose their god over their families.
Thanks for the kind words.
I finally got to read this. Glad you were able to think for yourself and break the shackles. I know it isn't easy. My husband was raised in a strict southern baptist home and he too, made a long journey to atheism (which just means "without god or gods or without a belief in god or gods). We have suffered the wrath of the whole family since then. We are told we are awful people, that we can't possibly be good parents and that we are "possessed". Truly awful how these people who claim to be of a loving, peaceful religion only act lovingly toward those who believe what they do. I wouldn't care at all, but it hurts my husband who is still prey for their guilt (we can never be happy knowing our beloved son has been corrupted by the "devil woman" and is going to hell...etc, etc, yawn.)
TahoeDoc - yes, I understand the treatment you and your husband get. It only further repels me from all religions that people behave like this.
I've been reading about some people that escaped from weird sects/cults. Underage sex, incest, rape etc. Anyone that questioned it was thrown out or sent to reform (hard labour) until they were exhausted into obedience. "Apostates" were considered more evil than those that never believed, along with people with dark skin. Fearful stories of the 'end times.' Sickness was from sin and curses. Some would strip off naked and all talk in tongues. Others wore full body clothing, had to treat the opposite sex like snakes, and then were put in illegal underage marriages, where girls were raped by their husbands (often old men).
Abuse on all levels: mental, emotional, physical, sexual etc in the 'name of God'
So sick and twisted.
I've just got to say, the reason for your "disease" (literally) is not because you sin, it is because sin is in the world. And no, you aren't any worse than any other sinner, but life isn't fair. Look at Jesus' life, he was (and is) perfect, yet he went through more than we could ever imagine because of us.
Also, personally, your comments about dying, well I agree with you! (the ones saying you wanted to die) what your friends told you is sad and unbelievable. I am a follow of Jesus and I would not mind dying right now. I want to go and be with the creator of the universe, but until I do die, it is my responsibility to praise God and learn about God, and tell others about God.
I'm sure you have heard this plenty of times, but God loves you more than you can ever comprehend. It hurts him to see you suffer, but suffering is the result of sin. You may say "well why doesn't God stop the suffering, he is all powerful after all." My response to this question is that God is a fair and just God. He disciplines us just as our parents do.
As far as the creation of the earth, the God we speak of created the universe without even thinking, the fact that we become confused over a simple subject like "things don't match up because the scientists say so" is crazy.
Jared, I'm sure you mean well, but your comments are hollow. As for disease being because of sin - the people that wrote the bible had no knowledge of microbes, allergies, biochemical imbalances, etc.
Many people have suffered more than Jesus, like the three children in the book I'm reading 'Not Without My Sister' - innocent children abused - sexually, emotionally, physically by a cult that preached the bible's message.
They preached the love of God, the salvation of Jesus etc, while abusing children.
Thousands of children suffered in religious cults like these. How can this all be because a superbeing that supposedly loves us decided to curse us with such evil after a woman ate a piece of fruit? It's all irrrational nonsense.
Baily, I am unsure of what you meant by bringing in microbes, etc, so I can't make a proper response to that.
A thing that needs to be pointed out is that all things without God are sin. This means that God did not create sin, because sin wasn't created per se. In other words, darkness isn't created per se, it is the absence of light, we then put a name to it and call it darkness. To blame God for the sin humans create isn't right. It does annoy me all of those "Christian groups" out there who preach the Bible but act differently. I feel for those young children, I couldn't imagine going through something like that. But all children are sinners, all humans are sinners. Jesus, on the other hand, was perfect, he was put to death the most "uncivilized" way the Romans knew of, and for what?...For us.
Jared - what I'm saying with microbes etc is that disease/illness has natural causes, not supernatural.
To have an innocent person murdered for the crimes of others is tragic. But, if Jesus is really God & knew he would come back to life, how much suffering did he really go through? Like, I said, there are plenty of people that suffered worse, even in the name of God.
Religious people only give God credit for good things and the bad things are because of sin or the devil. What kind of parent was God to put the first people in a garden & set them up to fail & punish all their generations with death & suffering for eternity after their first mistake? I am a parent, and it would be psycho if I threw my child on a fire if he stole a cookie.
Read the old testament and see whether you really like the Hitler description of God - murdering people, jealous, temper, enjoyed animals slaughtered for sacrifice etc. Doesn't quite match up with the person of Jesus. But they are supposed to be one and the same; yesterday, today and forever.
This is why qwe have to seek God "diligently" for ourselves. They couuldn't help you because they couldn't help themselves and in their shortcomings hurt you. There is small evidence for Jesus outside the Bible but I compare historical evidence for Jesus the same as historical evidence that slaves ever had a history. It's what those in control wish to report about people and situations that ultimately become "his-story".
God used your situation to expose those around you for who they really are...
In His Service
Certifiedhandy - I spent years praying to an imaginery friend that didn't talk back. The people that hurt me are sincere & don't realise how harmful their doctrine of damnation is
Thank you for your hub. I am a Christian who has recently (past couple of years) had serious health problems. I have experienced some similiar things in the church - some are convinced I must have sin in my life or I would not be sick. Interesting theory - sounds a little like blaming the victim, but reasoning with these people is pointless. My own opinion is that the randomness of life can be very frightening, and one response Christians can have is to think up theological reasons why nothing bad will happen to them. Unfortunately the corralary is that when something bad does happen to someone, some Christians suspect the person has sinned, or is under direct attack by demonic forces, or isn't even a Christian at all. Like I said, I am a Christian myself, but I also see that all sorts of bad things happen. I don't expect immunity. I do find faith valuable, and the bad occurances of life don't invalidate faith for me. But I am aware that this is the response of many.
As to no outside proof of Jesus existance - what about First Century Jewish historian Josephus' comment about Jesus?
graceomalley - thanks for your comments. It's great you have realised that something doesn't match up with the 'explanations' of blame the victim. I never really argued with them about it, because I was too ill (now that I am in much better health, I am quite good at winning arguments these days).
Another gripe of mine is the claim that 'all the earthquakes and floods mean the endtimes are near', when floods are caused by rain and rivers/creeks over-flowing & earthquakes are caused by Earth's crust moving.
I looked up Josephus - he was born 37AD so could not have been an eye-witness (apparently the gospels were not actually written by the disciples that bear their name, but were written decades after Jesus was supposed to have lived).
I found it rather shocking to learn that Jesus may not have actually existed (even though I've avoided church & reading the bible for years), but learning this allowed me to let go of the hold christianity had on me. I've written a hub about the evolution of christianity (about some of the stuff I've figured out in the few months on this topic), that may be of interest to you.
I respect that many people may find their faith gives them comfort. After encountering plenty of extremist religious nutters on hubpages (in the forums and a few that left nasty comments on my hubs), I am becoming more cynical about religion in any form. My most recent hub is a book review about sexual abuse of children in religious cults (bible believing cults). The only difference I see between these cults and other religions is matter of extremity.
I did a little more digging on Josephus myself after posting the above. Turns out most scholars now think the mentions of Jesus in Joe's work (he wrote alot - hundreds of pages - full time state supported historian) are additions by later copiers of his manuscripts.
I hate it when people do that.
I am not myself of the literal school of Bible understanding. Perhaps my main reason for this is the issue of slavery. If you truly want to be literal, the Bible supports slavery. The NT does say that slaves are of equal spiritual value, but never lobbys for making them other than slaves. Ever wondered why the Bible Belt is the American South? During the time when slavery was a contested practise, literal Bible interpretation became popular there. The Quakers, a sect who did not favor literal interpretation, lead the abolitionist cause. Christians lead both sides: what differed was their take on Bible interpretation. The first person in recorded history to write that slavery is morally wrong was Patrick of Ireland in the fourth century. His argument was that slavery causes suffering, Christ died for all people, therefore a Christian should never do something that causes human suffering. This is reasoning from Christian principles and Christian experience, but it is not literal Bible interpretation. Which has produced better things in the world?
I know many Christians think doing things this way means anything in the Bible can be reasoned around by argument, and that is a slippery slope. I don't agree as to the slipperiness. I think people of average maturity know what basic decency is, and don't need a literal translation ethic to prevent them running amok.
graceomalley - Yes, I agree with you about the literalists & extremists being the ones that have the ugly skeletons in their closet. I've been horrified at what I've read about the bible belt (I'm not from the US). I'm totally against how people use the bible to justify beating children, treating women as inferior, slavery, murder etc.
There are many cults and other religious extremists that have the bible as their key book - so obviously it is open to broad interpretation. My latest hub about sexual abuse of children in cults illustrates this. Two cults I highlight both used the bible as their holy book. Their nutty leader would then receive 'revelations from God.'. One of these cults preached having sex with Jesus (justifying with verses about being the bride of christ).
Religion is used to abuse and control people. The God of the bible has so many Hitler-like characteristics, surely he was created by men.
To Bailey Bear - Thanks for your honest and insightful article.I am going through a period of questioning faith itself. I reading everything everything from both sides, and listing to the debates. I am leaning towards your side...the side of logic and reason.
Ed - I think it is wise to consider both sides. I have a scientific, analytical mindset and I have studied science at tertiary level, so I can't just accept simplistic 'explanations' that are contrary to science and are based on ignorant superstitions and fear.
I recently wrote a book review hub about sexual abuse in religious cults. Those that questioned were punished severely with hard labour or excommunicated. Another hub 'Throwing the Baby Out with the Bathwater' is based on another book review from a woman disillusioned with christianity. She was physically removed because she asked too many questions
I'm 21 now and for a period of time I questioned my faith in God and the bible. However, I suppose I may have done what many consider illogical and decided to pursue the Christian faith. The thing is, I really don't understand how rude and hateful many so-called Christians are when Jesus, the very individual whom we are supposed to model ourselves after, instructed his followers to not pass judgment on anyone and to treat others the way they would like others to treat them. I would never try to force my beliefs down anyone else's throat and I would never condemn anyone to hell because I've sinned just as much as the next person. I do recall that elsewhere in the bible it is said that all have sinned and that there are none who are righteous, so no one is in any position to judge anyone else for any reason. It's crazy to me that people can be this way. Its also crazy to me that, as a few people mentioned earlier, many Christians are not as educated about the bible as many non-Christians and non-believers are. I find other faiths and religions very interesting and when trying to put it all together and look at the big picture, I see how the basic principles of many religions are the same. So, regardless of what I or anyone else believes, I commend you, Baileybear, for making a decision that you put years of thought into and made on your own. I can see how people who are not believers in a faith can be put off by it. For instance, I recently visited a Pentecostal church and it actually scared me quite a bit how organized the speaking in tongues was. There was literally a start and stop time for it, like it was rehearsed or something. Anyway, good luck to you with your family and your life. Well-written hub and interesting perspective.
Tara, there's some very rude and hateful 'christians' here on hubpages - I've received a few ugly comments by some of them. I pity them - how bitter and twisted they must be to attack people so.
You might be interested in my hub about the evolution of christianity & other religions - it was mainly about christianity, as this is the one I know most about. In a nutshell, it's how all religions evolved off each other - nothing new under the sun.
I agree with your comment about the speaking in tongues - it's a ritual, which usually takes place after singing emotional songs, and when the instrumentalists play certain chord progressions to help people get in the 'mood'.
You are not alone. Many people like myself have felt these same things and have made the decision, that other people's superstitions do not have to apply to our lives. It's too bad the way friends and family can preach love but abandon someone for their thought crimes against their beliefs. If only they realized a belief means something you think, not know. They never question if they could be wrong, and that is why they are rejecting the truth. An open mind finds truth a closed one shuts it out. You have taken the correct path following where your life has led you. If there is a God he would appreciate your strength and your boyfriend/husbands loyalty through the hard times not judge you for disbelief. A god who only accepts people with child like minds would not be much of a god at all.
Thank you for sharing your story!
hmmm - my family still speak to me, but they have often expressed how they don't like the way I live (and I'm not a prostitute or drug-dealer!). I feel sad that I can't be close to my family, because they disapprove so much.
I've been reading some memoirs about people leaving religious cults and how their family would not acknowledge them at all - so sad. I've written a few hubs as book reviews about these.
I think the most terrible thing about religion is the conflict that arises from it - conflict within families, as families choose their god over their own flesh & blood. Also wars because of religion.
Unfortunately, you can't have two opposing views without one being wrong.
There is only one truth.
In the end, we have a choice to believe what we want and sadly, those that stop seeking the truth have concluded and excluded themselves from a life experience far greater than anything they could have imagined.
Don't ever stop questioning and seeking - there is much in evolution (which by Darwin's definition has already been disproved) and things that science can't see or explain and yet many still "believe" in the theories created by man in order to eliminate God.
Remember, man once believed the WORLD WAS FLAT.
only1truth - you might be interested in checking out my hubs on Darwin & evolution. When early scientists worked out the world was not flat, and the Earth went round the Sun, the church was livid. At least one was tortured and put to death, and another was put on house arrest for years until he recanted
You, like a lot of us, have come across the failures of people both within and without the church. Most people believe the church is very different from the world. They don't expect evil, hypocrisy and lies to be there. There are people who get married and/or baptized for various reasons including love.
God is much higher than all of us. We are not promised a bed of roses in believing and serving Him. We are promised trials and tribulation but we are also promised the Comforter through these experiences. Partly because of and through some people, some of whom are christians (including church leaders), you feel God has failed you and you question His existence. We all question His existence at some point in our lives.
God lets his rain (and hail) to fall on the just and the unjust. God lets us live our life and choose which path to follow.
We mostly can't stop good or bad to come at us but we always have a choice as to how to respond to all situation. With any choice comes consequence whether good or bad. The person who say they have no choice in doing or not doing is a liar because its the only thing that we really and truly have as ours to do as we please.
A example of choice is a loaded guns held to your head and you are ordered to stripped in order to be raped. Some people will say they don't have a choice but to strip. The reality is that they CHOOSE to strip with the hope that compliance will save their life. The other CHOICE is not to strip and face being shot and killed. At every step of the way and in all circumstances, we make choices, but with ALL CHOICE COME CONSEQUENCE GOOD/BAD OR BOTH.
You believed in people more than you do God. You trusted people more than you do God. That is where you failed.
Gregory - Nope, didn't get any 'comforter'.
Don't understand your rape argument. One doesn't need to strip to be raped. One can be killed and still be raped. Why are you blaming the person being raped?
Your last sentence says it all: saying that I failed. Maybe I did. But you and your invisible powerless god fail too
Anyone who writes 45 hubs and has 341 followers, immediately has credibility in my eyes as one who has touched the nerve center of an ton of people! Good. Anything that stirs the thoughts in such a manner I regard as good.
I cannot prove God exists, I cannot prove the age of the earth or how it was created, nor that it was created. But frankly, neither can anyone demonstrate scientifically how all this stuff got and keeps going without a God or intelligence behind it. The beginnings are not repeatable, observable or in anyway are assumptions testable. But having written that, I don't want to get into insulting anyone. Different assumptions lead to different conclusions. If an assumption is held that no God exists, all the facts of the universe will not line up in any way, except that which supports that assumption.
Faith is the substance of things not seen. Trust me, no one saw the beginnings of all things. Except perhaps a God if that was the perpetrator of creation.
I wrote a hub, it assumes that if empirical science is to be served, no one has a strong case for or against God's existence.
No, I'm not an agnostic. I'm a believer. Now what am I a believer in? We all are believers in something that we cannot prove. Scientific Christians, or Agnostic scientists, or atheist ones. We are none of us more faithfilled or scientific in our basic view of the world.
I regret there are so many who must prove they are right and others are wrong and must be destroyed by personal assassination, etc. What I expect to see accomplished by this comment, I don't know. I just hope it helps.
mike - only up to 41 hubs so far - have plenty of ideas jotted down, but not enough time to write them all!
I like to make people think, and these are some of the things that have been though-provoking for me. I like to play devil's advocate. For example, some christians on my facebook thought it was a 'miracle' that no bodies were found in the cathedral after the Christchurch earthquake. Others said that God was looking after 'those in his house.' I said, 'so does that make it okay that others died?' They immediately said, 'oh, no'. I said I found it irritating when people throw away their rational brain and attribute everything to the supernatural eg earthquakes. Clearly there was dodgy initial reporting going on.
It use to irritate someone else I've come to admire greatly. One whom most think would be the most judgemental of those "out of the house" - forgive the quote:
"Jesus said, 'These people from Galilee suffered greatly. Do you think they were worse sinners than all the other Galileans? I tell you, no! But unless you turn away from your sins, you will all die too."
In the exuberance to show how handy it is to be a Christian, Christians can portray the life as one of protected wonderfulness. Actually Christians can be the worst of sinners, and suffer horrible consequences. And people can be as nice as the day is long, and suffer the same. Why? I don't know.
mike - I think christians can be very unloving. Also prone to saying some pretty brainless things.
Yes, they are quite human in that respect too. Careless moments, stock answers, cliche response, etc. But the original Christian came down hard on that as you can see. Some bad events in your life? It's all your fault, if you were a good Christian, you'd know nothing but blessing and relief! Well, not quite, when you consider Job - that whole experience was to show that as nonsense.
mike - I wrote a hub about venturing into the Hubpages religious forums. Lots of venom in there. All the same old tired cliches too.
The Bible clearly says that God's wants a relationship with EVERYONE. Too many "religions"............. Wait, let me rephrase that; ALL OF THE RELIGIONS want everyone to believe they have "figured it out" and if you don't use "their" answers for eternal salvation and follow their rules then YOU'RE OUT!!!
The problem with that is that is not how Jesus said it. If you really read the Bible, when did Jesus ever "jam up" the non-believer? He didnt. In fact, whenever we see Jesus "sticking it to someone" He was giving it to the so called "religious leaders" who He said were "making it way too difficult."
Again, the Bible says God wants "Everyone" to have a relationship with Him. Not just a select few. Not the ones who follow the rules. When the word "everyone" was translated from the Original Greek text to the modern day word, it translated to "EVERYONE." Everyone includes the atheists, the muslims, the jews, the christians, the killers, and everyone who the "good" christians think will be left out.
Jesus mentions the Greek word for Hell 13 times in the Bible. But everytime he mentions Hell, he is describing the people who think they are "in" and they really arent. Then he talks about the people who we think "don't make it" and they do. That speaks to me.
I think there will be a lot of pissed off christians in heaven when they look around and see how many people made it, but didnt follow "their" rules.
On the day Jesus died, there was a thief on the cross next to Him. The thief said to Jesus, "Remember me." And Jesus responded by saying they would be together in paradise that day. The thief didnt ask for mercy, didnt ask for forgiveness, didnt confess Jesus as his savior and didnt have a personal relationship with Jesus. In addition, there is no debate about the translation of the text. Too me, that is EVERYONE.
BaileyBear, you had a horrible experience and I have no doubt that God is heaven shaking His head at the way you were treated. I believe in a God of the universe and the God of the Bible. I just think man has screwed it up so bad right now.
I live a Christian life the best I can because it has saved my life and my marriage. For me it is just a better way to live. Had I been through what "christians" (and I use that term loosely) put you through , I can't say I would be in the same place. I don't think I get to go to heaven because I happen to be surrounded by good and supportive Christians and you have to go to hell because you were srrounded by scumbbags claiming the title of Christian. I just think God is better than that.
I have no doubt, BaileyBear that if you spend the rest of your life an theist, I will still see you in heaven. I know most of the "Christians" will disagree with me, but they also can't answer my quesiotns about the points I made above.
God Bless you
Victor - I can't force myself to believe in something that doesn't come through for me. Christians talk about having a relationship with God. I kidded myself that I did too. I never ever had God respond to me. I'd like to know what kind of 'relationship' people have with God. Someone asked this question on the forums, and the honest ones admitted it was no more than just a 'feeling'.
I'd say for my mother, becoming a christian has given her a sense of belonging somewhere and made her less of a nervous wreck. For me, it made me into a nervous wreck. I didn't find it a better way to live
I agree, Christians talk about having a "personal relationship" with God. I have heard it my whole life. The problem with that is, the phrase "personal relationship" never appears anywhere in the Bible.
So since it never appears anywhere in the BIble, is it safe to say that it is NOT the way to heaven. Again, my point about the thief on the cross. He didnt have a personal relationship with God, he didnt confess his sin, he didnt even ask Jesus into his heart and he was no more than a couple of feet from him. Yet Jesus clearly said, "Today, you will be with me in paradise."
I am not saying you need to believe right now. I think it would do you good to at least keep an open mind and I believe I can see an open mind from your writings. Even still, the Bible says God wants everyone to be with Him. "Everyone."
If "everyone" doesnt make it to heaven someday, somehow, are we to assume God fails in His desire? Are we too assume that although God wants all of us in heaven, He doesnt get what He wants?
I don't think so.
I have never had God respond to me either. It's too bad because I think it would be neat. I really don't think 99% of the people that claim God responded to them, really believe that themself. Another problem with religions.
I am not trying ot convert you in any way. That's not my job. If God wants you to believe at any time, He will give you that "thing" you need to believe. I just want to encourage you that the people in your life are not what God had in mind. They do not "get it" and you are just out of the loop. You are actually better off than they are according to scripture.
I am completely respectful of how you feel and have actually spent about 6 or 7 months listening to atheists discuss their pooints of view. Just to undewrstand them. I wrote a hub about how correct atheists are in their perceptions of CHristians and how Christians should spend some time with atheists so they can realize what a$* h@les most people think we are. Christians could do amazing things in God's name with just 3 little, simple words.
I don't know
Victor - I'm one to keep an open mind. The narrow-mindedness amongst christians bothered me a lot, like telling gays they were going to hell etc.
I didn't realise just how irritating christians can be until I spent time on the religious forums. Yes, there are some abrasive atheists, but I thought some of the christians were worse.
Most atheists are happy to admit, 'I don't know'. I agree that christians could earn more respect if they could admit that too
Great hub, Baileybear. ;) Congratulations for having the courage to figure out your life for your self. Your Journey is to be admired.
Slarty - this was my first 'coming out' hub - my family weren't too happy, but seem to have gotten over it
Hi Baileybear,
I did a little crying when I was reading your post, becoz I am also undergoing doubts about God. I'm a homosexual/transgendered and can't really understand if this is my choice or why did "God" let me felt this way... as if I felt that I'm condemned to hell for being like this... Just like you, I have given up on praying, but I was raised as a Christian. And so at times when I'm hurting and felt betrayed by everyone, All that's left of me is HOPE... At the back of my mind I'm praying to God... it's like i'm talking to an invisible being. It's hard for me to cry now.. It's like my heart's made of stone now.... but sometimes, I felt guilty of what I'm feeling... Bailey, there's God.... you don't have to prove it... you just have to have faith.... :) Let us not mind what other people will tell us... or condemn us... :)Bailey hugs!!!!
fashionangel - thanks for commenting. I'd like to believe, but I can't force myself to. Do you have a support group like a forum to talk to others in your situation? I feel for you, as I know that many would be condemning. There are some that find their faith in God and their sexuality is compatible. All the best finding a listening ear.
I felt bad when I read your story. I understand how you feel, and there are things that happen in life beyond our understanding. No church, priest, pastors, or any human being who can save you; nobody has the right to judge anybody. I can sense from your own words that you still have a space in your heart waiting for God’s answer to your questions and doubts.
Remember this: Christianity is a personal relationship with God. I will not ask you to convert yourself to any religion, but I’d ask you to give your life a second glimpse. I’d like to share this youtube video about an interview with a man without limbs; here’s the link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tl58qufXfYk
Just like you and me, the man in this video also experienced problems, rejections and persecution of other people. I hope you can watch it and get some answers to your questions through his experience.
I tried to reflect on this question, “Are the problems and hardships that I encountered in life comparable to what Jesus Christ had gone through at Calvary? I hope this will give you some thoughts to ponder on.
Tina
I've seen a documentary item about that fellow in the video. For him, faith gives him meaning. Not everyone with disabilities believes in God to get them through life.
When I ask people what their 'personal relationship with God' involves, they can't really tell me. Those that are honest about it admit that it's nothing more than a 'feeling'.
As for a man being brutally murdered 'for the sins of mankind', I cannot comprehend how a 'loving father' would curse his children and all their children for their first mistake (in the garden).
I was a Christian for 30+ years, Common Sense, Reason, If GOD want to teach me something, My mind is my own church, Thomas Paine.
A Deist
Many books wre written about GOD, but none has mastered GOD only because GOD IS.........AMAZING
Cindy - a deist - that's where God is part of nature?
I know where you are coming from Baileybear but I need to tell you that you from what you are saying that you don't have a problem with Christianity but on organized religion which even I find to be very judgmental and alienating. If there are people who are driving away people from God it is this middlemen more than anyone else. I am in a period of my life where I am praying to God to give me answers through the bible because I don't really believe what the ministers have been preaching to me. I BEG you to do the same.
benkim - I spent years getting nothing in response from God. I'm afraid pleading with me won't change that fact.
I read this hub with great interest, because it very closely mirrors my own experiences. I recognise your internal battle. Leaving faith behind is not at all easy, because of an innate sense of guilt. Finding that the bible is historically inaccurate and that it contains many unpleasant examples of God's morality, such as His instructions to bash out the brains of babies on the rocks, was the foundation of my own turning away from my Christian beliefs. Also the lack of understanding often shown by Christians to those who don't share their beliefs, or their suggestion that mental health problems are evidence of being possessed by the devil doesn't exactly inspire me with confidence in their religion. To be fair, there are many liberal Christians, but the evangelical type of Christianity does seem at the moment to be gaining in popularity. In America, there are still court cases, where Christians are trying to prevent the teaching of evolution in schools, even though evolution now is no longer a theory, but is fact, backed up with fossil evidence. People fear what they choose not to understand, and unfortunately, I cannot see this ever changing. People need to believe in God, because they fear death, and only the supernatural can offer the hope of eternal life. So, I think God is here to stay, no matter how illogical religious belief can be. It is understandable why Christians feel under attack by science, and why they become so angry with people who do not share their beliefs, but perhaps this is evidence that deep down, they have doubts themselves, and by fighting those of different faiths, or of no faith at all, they are perhaps really trying to convince themselves. Although this is not just the problem of Christianity, but of all faiths.
Sherlock - thank you for sharing how you've come to similar conclusions. This was my first hub about my lack of belief. I've written a few on evolution, unintelligent design and evolution of religion.
I was indoctrinated into religion, but I suspect those that weren't are drawn into it out of fear, wanting a social group, trying to have a meaning in their life. I've known some really great people that are christians. Lots of weirdos too.
And again, late to the conversation (so much to read, and so little time)
Thanks for sharing your story. Impressive when anyone survives the 'whips and scorns of time' well enough and whole enough to revisit it through sharing with others.
The more we accept the experience of others and really try to understand it, the less likely we are to judge.
It's one thing to share, another to give advice, and quite another to condescend by saying things like 'your struggle and survival was wrong because it didn't follow mine', which is what I'm seeing in many of the comments here.
If there was one true way and it was the desire of a creator, we would all know it, all agree to it and all be on it.
Clearly, if there is a creator of any power, the uncertainty was intended. It makes us seek and find our own way.
I'm glad that you seem to have found yours. thanks so much for sharing.
cheers
Anton - never too late to comment. I'm actually blogging about my views on all of this now. My blog is called God Confusion.
Agree with you about many of the comments.
Being open-minded is a good way to be, IMO.
I believe deep down you still believe God is real and jesus christ died for you. science is good but it has its limitations(the human mind) god created science and all thats involved in it. he needed to make the world and universe to be able to operate under its own scientific laws so if we and we did reject him the world and universe would still go on. its like say i was God and wanted to make a car that runs. i could make a car run with just my power but when i wasnt there it would stop. so incase that car one day left me i would need to make the components to fit together and run so that one day if that car left me it would still run on its own accord even without me. so it is with this world. god could have made the world run only by his power.but he needed to make it still run without him, so he created the laws of physics to create the world and laws of nature to keep it running without him.
But one day there will be a new earth and a new heaven totally living under the glory of God himself.
You know this is true.
evolution against creation
ok what is the stages
evo= big bang
creation god said let there be light
evo=world is formed no life
creation gods spirit moves across the barren earth no life.
evo next stage sealife appears.
creation god creates the fish of the seas.
evolution then says fish caame to land and become animals.
creation says then god created animals etc.
in genesis it has the same time frames or periods of things happening in the same way evolutionists say things happened.
but also did you know that there are many animals and insects that need everything of their bodies to be formed at the same time or they would not survive.
AKA Winston Level 5 Commenter 19 months ago
(Rather than God creating humans in his image; humans have created God in their image.)
Congratulations - most people are too fearful to acknowledge the simple fact that Christianity came out of Jewish mythology - as you say, humans explaning by oral legend the unexplainable of their times.
I suggest you read Fatfist's hub on First Cause for an answer about the reality of a creator god existing.